South Africa team selection

[StephenZA]

Coaches have been worrying me for some time... think I commented on it back when; we actually needed to increase the number of quality coaches across the board and they were dropping out or heading overseas.

 

[SeamUp]

Was also reading how the team is in a re-building phase. We've been in them before but not been anywhere near this bad. Sri Lanka at home still takes the cake.

Was just looking now.

Philander 60
Du Plessis 60
Elgar 58
de Kock 42
Bavuma 38
Rabada 39
Maharaj 27

That is a decent amount of test matches there. Just not including Markram, de Bruyn, Muthusamy and Nortje. [Hamza & Ngidi]

 

[StephenZA]

So listening to Amla the other day he said that players probably need 30 Tests to feel comfortable at Test level, particularly for the batsmen. So what we looking at is players like de Kock, Rabada and Maharaj now settled, all of whom have performed at some stage and should now be feeling comfortable. Bavuma has not done what was needed and needs to be replaced. Elgar is a difficult one because he stands up now and again, love him, but for all his experience he still has to many questions. But even then SA are right now trying to find 4 new players or at least wait for them to settle. 3 new players in a team with little or no experience is pretty big. Normally you want a max of 2 players; And on top you have the impending reality of Philander an de Plessis probably a year from retirement? So any new players have a year to settle before two new players need to be brought in? Big ask.

 

[SeamUp]

Coaches have been worrying me for some time... think I commented on it back when; we actually needed to increase the number of quality coaches across the board and they were dropping out or heading overseas.

Kallis' only cricket work is with international T20 teams around the world is another. HD Ackerman was CSA batting consultant before deciding he has to move to Australia to give his son a better life. Wessels also left for Australia. Whilst doing just comms work he was one always willing to give his time if asked.

Just thinking. Who are the other great cricket minds who can go into coaching ?

Smith made enough money from his career and now some international comm work is good enough.

So past Prince and Boucher we aren't left with coaches with international cricket exposure now at franchise level. So you fall on domestic stalwarts who feel they can make a difference. We don't know who else there is around ?

For example would G.Kirsten got where he got to without Duncan Fletcher being his coach at UCT where he was not really going anywhere with his cricket. Kallis keeps singing the praises of the early influence of Fletcher and Bob Woolmer. It has got to be an important factor.

 

[SeamUp]

So listening to Amla the other day he said that players probably need 30 Tests to feel comfortable at Test level, particularly for the batsmen. So what we looking at is players like de Kock, Rabada and Maharaj now settled, all of whom have performed at some stage and should now be feeling comfortable. Bavuma has not done what was needed and needs to be replaced. Elgar is a difficult one because he stands up now and again, love him, but for all his experience he still has to many questions. But even then SA are right now trying to find 4 new players or at least wait for them to settle. 3 new players in a team with little or no experience is pretty big. Normally you want a max of 2 players; And on top you have the impending reality of Philander an de Plessis probably a year from retirement? So any new players have a year to settle before two new players need to be brought in? Big ask.

How many players get afforded 30 tests ? Only those one's who are performing to a decent level I would say.

Elgar has his faults but no test opener has scored as many hundreds as him in the last 4/5 years so I would certainly keep him.

We all talk about impending retirements but SA cricket has always had to find replacements at some point. That is probably the debate around the domestic scene. I have been commenting on our SA A and SA u19 results in the last 5 years but I bet CSA just brush that under the carpet. That can't happen and now how far gone is it ?

The most important thing is that we always competed and now we are not. Now it is shocking defeats. Individual ability and individual mentality probably 2 big determining factors.

Talking of Amla. Signing a 2 year Kolpak and offering Surrey's best young talent some advice and presence at the crease with. Pity SA cricket loses out on that.

 

[SeamUp]

Recently I have seen Dolphins ask Shaun Pollock & Dale Benkenstein to come around and talk/work with their players. Fantastic. Tick.

Knights have asked Allan Donald to work with the unions fast bowlers from under age level up. Tick.

Is this happening at other unions ?

 

[StephenZA]

Recently I have seen Dolphins ask Shaun Pollock & Dale Benkenstein to come around and talk/work with their players. Fantastic. Tick.

Knights have asked Allan Donald to work with the unions fast bowlers from under age level up. Tick.

Is this happening at other unions ?

I think a number of the unions are trying. As well I think CSA recognise the problems. Whether that actually results in a proper change and an effective tackling of all the problems, or just further politics I don't know. As an example I think changing back to a provincial system could be great for the game in SA, but the caveat as always is if done properly in the right way by the people capable of doing it. If it just becomes another load of bollocks, does not matter how good the plan is.

 

[StephenZA]

How many players get afforded 30 tests ? Only those one's who are performing to a decent level I would say.

Elgar has his faults but no test opener has scored as many hundreds as him in the last 4/5 years so I would certainly keep him.

We all talk about impending retirements but SA cricket has always had to find replacements at some point. That is probably the debate around the domestic scene. I have been commenting on our SA A and SA u19 results in the last 5 years but I bet CSA just brush that under the carpet. That can't happen and now how far gone is it ?

I think the 30 Tests was feeling comfortable and part of the team at that level. I think you need to show something before that. As I said de Villers avged 32 after 28 tests, and Kallis was just on 40 after 32 tests. But had showed something. Its kinda the difference between Markram and de Bruyn. Both struggling and trying to get runs on the board. Markram has shown something, scored some big runs but is obviously not settled or happy yet. de Bruyn has scored a single innings of substance and otherwise gotten out to injudicious shots on a continuous basis. One you keep, the other creates a question.

The most important thing is that we always competed and now we are not. Now it is shocking defeats. Individual ability and individual mentality probably 2 big determining factors.

I think this has to do with a mental factor and discipline, I do think when you look back at the captains and coaches in the past they were tough disciplinarians; expected players to literally run the extra mile. Now we are in situation that some players are consistently overweight, and struggling with conditioning. As you rightly point out look at how our fielding has changed? That is about putting the time in.... but your point about coaching also comes in here because there is no point putting in lots of hours that gain you nothing, need to be getting the right sort of practise and discipline.

Talking of Amla. Signing a 2 year Kolpak and offering Surrey's best young talent some advice and presence at the crease with. Pity SA cricket loses out on that.

Unfortunately this is just money. Hopefully comes back and spends enough time here, to also spend time with local players.

 

[MrPrez]

Was also reading how the team is in a re-building phase. We've been in them before but not been anywhere near this bad. Sri Lanka at home still takes the cake.

Was just looking now.

Philander 60
Du Plessis 60
Elgar 58
de Kock 42
Bavuma 38
Rabada 39
Maharaj 27

That is a decent amount of test matches there. Just not including Markram, de Bruyn, Muthusamy and Nortje. [Hamza & Ngidi]

All of these players are genuine top quality performers (with the exception of Bavuma).It's the other five spots where the issue lies.

I maintain that quality isn't really our issue right now. A bowling line-up of Rabada/Philander/NortjeORNgid/Maharaj is on par with pretty much any in the world, and the likes of Elgar, de Kock, and du Plessis are proven Test performers.

Equally all of these players had moments where they looked okay this series - the problem is:

a) There seems to be a form issue across the board.
b) None of them, with the exception of Rabada and kind of Philander, are true superstar players in the same way as the de Villiers/Steyn/Amla/Kallis etc mould.

Even with Rabada, he's clearly brilliant but he's not matured enough to do a similar role to that which Steyn did for many years.

Realistically the core of our team needs to be

1. Elgar

3.
4. du Plessis
5.
6. de Kock
7.
8. Philander
9. Maharaj
10. Rabada
11.

I reckon any of those players would make most test sides. It's about finding at least one or two exciting youngsters that can become genuine 50-averaging test batsmen or 25-averaging test bowlers in the future.

As already mentioned, though, the problem will be balancing opportunities for youngsters with the need for experience and a solid core. That's what has been keeping Bavuma in the discussion realistically imo. If you drop Bavuma you have to bring in a number 3, a number 5, and a number 6/7. That's a huge change and a hugely inexperienced batting line-up.

I maintain we should do it, but we need to be aware that the team will probably have a lean 2-3 years as these guys will possibly take longer to acclimatise without a de Villiers or Steyn to take the spotlight away from them.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Re. the bowling attack, I partly agree. In SA conditions Rabada/Philander and Ngidi are quality but feel Australia and especially India have more rounded bowling attacks i.e adaptable in variety of conditions
I've been guilty of underrating Vern the last couple of years - he's still obviously a fantastic quick and should do very well this home summer - likewise Rabada and Ngidi. But realistically he has probably a max 2 years left in the test arena, and soon a new quick has to be identified now (Coetzee, Jansen, Dupavillon et from the next gen) and given opportunities soon. SA really don't want a situation where Philander has retired and they haven't tested anyone

 

[Dendarii]

He's obviously a different type of bowler, but Nortje is clearly currently being seen as the next one in line. As for bringing through younger bowlers, both Sipamla and Jansen played on the A tour of India, so those are the two they've got their eye on at the moment.

 

[StephenZA]

Re. the bowling attack, I partly agree. In SA conditions Rabada/Philander and Ngidi are quality but feel Australia and especially India have more rounded bowling attacks i.e adaptable in variety of conditions.

I think what we are talking about here is experience though. Maharaj has struggled this Indian series, but otherwise been decent around the RoW. Outside Philander it is a pretty young attack, lots of skill and ability but learning to bowl in various conditions is not easy.

 

[StephenZA]

He's obviously a different type of bowler, but Nortje is clearly currently being seen as the next one in line. As for bringing through younger bowlers, both Sipamla and Jansen played on the A tour of India, so those are the two they've got their eye on at the moment.

Gerald Coetzee must be in that as well.

 

[Dendarii]

Gerald Coetzee must be in that as well.

They haven't picked him yet, which was why I didn't mention him, but he definitely should be in the mix.

 

[StephenZA]

They haven't picked him yet, which was why I didn't mention him, but he definitely should be in the mix.

Think they went Jansen first because he is a left arm and can bat. I think long term Coetzee may have a better pedigree as a speedster though.

 

[MrPrez]

Re. the bowling attack, I partly agree. In SA conditions Rabada/Philander and Ngidi are quality but feel Australia and especially India have more rounded bowling attacks i.e adaptable in variety of conditions
I've been guilty of underrating Vern the last couple of years - he's still obviously a fantastic quick and should do very well this home summer - likewise Rabada and Ngidi. But realistically he has probably a max 2 years left in the test arena, and soon a new quick has to be identified now (Coetzee, Jansen, Dupavillon et from the next gen) and given opportunities soon. SA really don't want a situation where Philander has retired and they haven't tested anyone

Yeah probably fair regarding the best-in-the-world stuff; the overarching point is it's a world-class bowling line-up that we shouldn't have any issues with. And as you mention, the likes of Jansen, Coetzee, and Dupavillion are all waiting in the wings - the future of our bowling is pretty much sorted.

 

[Rasimione]

All of these players are genuine top quality performers (with the exception of Bavuma).It's the other five spots where the issue lies.

I maintain that quality isn't really our issue right now. A bowling line-up of Rabada/Philander/NortjeORNgid/Maharaj is on par with pretty much any in the world, and the likes of Elgar, de Kock, and du Plessis are proven Test performers.

Equally all of these players had moments where they looked okay this series - the problem is:

a) There seems to be a form issue across the board.
b) None of them, with the exception of Rabada and kind of Philander, are true superstar players in the same way as the de Villiers/Steyn/Amla/Kallis etc mould.

Even with Rabada, he's clearly brilliant but he's not matured enough to do a similar role to that which Steyn did for many years.

Realistically the core of our team needs to be

1. Elgar

3.
4. du Plessis
5.
6. de Kock
7.
8. Philander
9. Maharaj
10. Rabada
11.

I reckon any of those players would make most test sides. It's about finding at least one or two exciting youngsters that can become genuine 50-averaging test batsmen or 25-averaging test bowlers in the future.

As already mentioned, though, the problem will be balancing opportunities for youngsters with the need for experience and a solid core. That's what has been keeping Bavuma in the discussion realistically imo. If you drop Bavuma you have to bring in a number 3, a number 5, and a number 6/7. That's a huge change and a hugely inexperienced batting line-up.

I maintain we should do it, but we need to be aware that the team will probably have a lean 2-3 years as these guys will possibly take longer to acclimatise without a de Villiers or Steyn to take the spotlight away from them.

Hamza and Markram should be our 3 and 4. I really hope they shift Markram to bat at 4. Ngidi is a bit more consistent than Nortje at the moment so he gets my vote. The opener question is a big problem. I'm undecided on who's the standout performer at domestic level.

 

[StephenZA]

Hamza and Markram should be our 3 and 4. I really hope they shift Markram to bat at 4. Ngidi is a bit more consistent than Nortje at the moment so he gets my vote. The opener question is a big problem. I'm undecided on who's the standout performer at domestic level.

Breetzke, J Malan, and possible van Tonder. Moore for now possibly?

 

[Rasimione]

Breetzke, J Malan, and possible van Tonder. Moore for now possibly?

I like what i saw of Van Tonder. Malan is talented as well but I'm not sure he's a test opener. Breetzke has not done enough yet to be in the reckoning. Moore needs to repeat last seasons performance to really knock on that door.

The reason I mentioned the opener position is that we haven't been solid enough. Our 3 and 4 have been exposed to the new ball far too early in most of the games. A lil bit of solidity at the top of the order and we might have better performances.

 

[Bahseph]

Was just pondering about how bad that Gibson stint really was for us. The spicy home decks really never gave us an inclination about how these fast bowlers would go on flatter surfaces, and totally nerfed Maharaj for the most part. And it didn't help our batsmen in getting practice putting up big scores. Looks more and more like a bad appointment now. Although, hindsight etc etc.