South Africa team selection

[SeamUp]

I don't know so much on the fast bowling. On paper possibly but our quick bowlers have been badly out bowled by India's and they were speaking about it on comms.

In the past our good teams would say lets control what we can control first and foremost and that is bowling fast and playing quick bowling and I am afraid to say it but we have badly failed here.

 

[StephenZA]

I don't know so much on the fast bowling. On paper possibly but our quick bowlers have been badly out bowled by India's and they were speaking about it on comms.

In the past our good teams would say lets control what we can control first and foremost and that is bowling fast and playing quick bowling and I am afraid to say it but we have badly failed here.

This is why I keep talking about discipline. Poor tactics, poor thinking but I don't feel like there is discipline and mental strength is lacking. This comes through with our poor fielding as well sometimes.

You wonder if it comes from a lack of coaching from having a strong experienced team for so long. Young team you need a strong coach who can instil skills and discipline, bring a team together. With a more experienced team you help with small technical issues and tactical decisions, players already know what test cricket is about. And of course problems at domestic level not bringing players up to scratch before they hit the higher levels.

It was also interesting listening to Amla talk about needing at least 2 years to rebuild the team, and it takes about 30 test matches to start feeling comfortable at Test level.

 

[Rasimione]

Maybe having QDK giving up the gloves and playing as pure batsman is not such a bad idea after all..We need his runs on a consistent basis, and if giving up the gloves gives us a better output then so be it. Markram needs to move to 4. He's a far better player than Bavuma and De Bruyn and would be an upgrade on those 2. Having him at 4 with QDK at 5 and Faf at 6 would atleast give us a solid middle order maybe?

Elgar
Moore/J Malan
Hamza
Markram
QDK
FAF
Verryne/Seconds?
Philander
Maharaj
Rabada
Ngidi.

That's how I'd line up for the English series.
Mulder, Qeshile and Rassie can provide competition for the other batters. I didn't include Muthusamy in the equation because he's never gonna amount to anything IMO.

 

[vcs]

De Kock's 2nd innings dismissal was appalling. Talented player, but ties in with the poor decision-making SA have showed all series.

 

[Bahseph]

This has been one of the worst tours I've ever seen from us. It's way worse than 2015 where we atleast competed with the ball, and had the excuse of minefields.

1. Elgar- I don't hold his dismissal against him today. He doesn't use his feet to the spinners and he isn't the biggest sweeper so him going over the top is his way of getting the field back. Still the best opener we have.
2. Markram- past the potential phase now. We need him to stand up. Been a bad Test series.
3. de Bruyn- he may very well score a century in the next game,but it's curtains for him as far as I'm concerned. He could force his way back if he dominates domestically for a few years, but he doesn't seem to have the mental game.
4. Bavuma- nothing we didn't know. Surely his stats are shaping up to be some of the most middling ever seen from a proper batsman in Tests.
5. Faf- some good knocks,but something is off. Maybe retirement is close.
6. QDK- really don't think he should give up the gloves. He is one of the best wicketkeeper batsmen around.
7. Muthusamy - not the ideal selection imo. In franchise cricket his bowling is effective, but he needs to work on it to be effective at international level. Willing to bat time, which I commend. Should be a straight switch for Mulder.
8. Philander - did what we knew he would in Asia. With bat and ball.
9. Maharaj - hopefully this is a learning experience for him. There's lots to like but he doesn't have the consistency of the Indian spinners. Really liked seeing him score runs. He can contribute if he doesn't look to slog!
10. Rabada - bowled well. But Faf needs to use him properly. Not as a holding bowler!
11. Nortje- tough on him. Has pace to burn though.

Sorry about the long winded post. I'm absolutely over seeing Bavuma and de Bruyn. Hamza is a must. Mulder as well. You Gents are more knowledgeable as who is the next cab of the rank with our young batsmen? Who is the pick of the bunch?

 

[Pup Clarke]

Top 7 I'd like to see against England

Elgar
Markram
Hamza
Faf
De Kock
Bavuma
Mulder

EDIT : Actually think VDD for Bavuma should happen. Temba would be a good 12th man

 

[MrPrez]

My England 7:

Elgar
Markram
Hamza
Faf
Rassie/Verreyne
de Kock
Mulder

I will say that I've long been a proponent on taking the gloves off QdK and I may consider switching the above lineup to QdK 5, Verreyne 6, and Verreyne with the gloves. I haven't watched much of his glovework though.

van Tonder and Qeshile are next-in-line to get opportunities in the batting line-up should any batsmen struggle.

Bavuma and de Bruyn have to go. Unfortunately I don't see the selectors dropping Bavuma from the XI. I wouldn't mind him in the squad as a 12th man and possible replacement should injuries be an issue. But selecting him portrays a negative attitude that we're happy with consistent mediocrity.

 

[StephenZA]

If we going to take the gloves off QDK it should be for Qeshile, who has shown good keeping skill. But I think that would be a poor decisions. QDK needs the keeping because he needs to stay in the game all the time. He is an aggressive batsmen that needs the platform to really be at his best, pushing him up the order becomes dicy, and 5 would probably be the highest you could play him. If he fails with the bat and does not have the keeping to help his confidence, think he will struggle. Also if we bring in another keeper they should be a better bat than any other middle order choices else we just weakening the team overall.

While I would not be against Rassie playing I would rather see Breetzke, Qeshile or van Tonder (or another of the younger in form players) given a shot. I am a huge advocate of van Tonder who could open and allow Markram to shift down to 4. If Breetzke gets an opportunity first then, then he needs to bat 4/5 and Markram continues to open. Qeshile seems to be a perfect 5 though based on his performances for the Warriors, but need to seem him convert and get some tons though.

 

[MrPrez]

The issue with Qeshile is it seems he won't even be keeping for the Warriors. I imagine he's going to be a specialist batsman in the long-term, so bringing him in as a keeper wouldn't make sense.

I'm also not sure he's ready to play Tests yet considering his conversion issues at domestic level. I'd somewhat like seeing younger players get a chance but I'm not sure van Tonder or Breetzke should be shoved in yet. They probably need some more professional cricket under their belt to be prepared completely.

Verreyne has probably reached the point that he's worth a punt; Rassie would be the "safer" option if we want to develop the youngsters further.

 

[StephenZA]

The issue with Qeshile is it seems he won't even be keeping for the Warriors. I imagine he's going to be a specialist batsman in the long-term, so bringing him in as a keeper wouldn't make sense.

This was a request by CSA, indicating that they are unlikely to want QDK to drop the gloves.

I'm also not sure he's ready to play Tests yet considering his conversion issues at domestic level. I'd somewhat like seeing younger players get a chance but I'm not sure van Tonder or Breetzke should be shoved in yet. They probably need some more professional cricket under their belt to be prepared completely.

I agree on the conversion rate. hence the comment. Only mitigation is that he has been consistently fighting rear guard actions and been left stranded a few times. But would like to see him at SA 'A' level first.

Verreyne has probably reached the point that he's worth a punt; Rassie would be the "safer" option if we want to develop the youngsters further.

My problem with going for these inbetweeners is simple. It is going to take at least 2 years and 20+ tests for new players to really gain experience. We rebuilding from scratch. I don't think that Veryenne or Rassie will be adding a great deal to SA test team in 2 years time. Probably be good players with an avg hovering near to the 40's and the SA test team will be in the same position. Players even with FC experience (particularly with our weaker domestic structures) are still going to take time to get comfortable at test level. Right now we have some highly talented youngsters that have greater potential to get to the 50 avg. Lets give them the 2 years to develop rather than waiting, because they are unlikely to walk into the Test team and do well straight away. Few have done that. de Villers avg 35 after 28 tests, Kallis avg 41 after 32 tests. It takes time, lets not waste it.


I do care about winning tests now.... I care more about rebuilding to a great team.

 

[StephenZA]

My biggest concern right now, is the same old same old approach of CSA. And a big question mark is this apparent grooming Bavuma for captaincy role... his position should be under serious threat, if not already gone. That is scary talk for the future of SA cricket.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Also, would Elgar be a good short-term captain to oversee this transitional phase do we think? Not absolutely convinced Markram is a test opener long-term and it gives the opportunity to blood a new opener with a senior guy at the top of the order

 

[Dendarii]

Bavuma did a decent job captaining the Lions, so I think he's got the captaincy credentials but unfortunately, he doesn't have the batting credentials. A captain needs to be able to justify his place in the side, and currently the only way Bavuma is managing to do that is by not being the worst batsman, but he won't have that luxury once De Bruyn is dropped.

As for De Kock giving up the gloves, I think that should only happen if there's someone who's a better keeper than him. I don't know if you can say that about Qeshile or Verreynne, but if not then the only way they should come into the side is purely as batsmen.

 

[SeamUp]

Also, would Elgar be a good short-term captain to oversee this transitional phase do we think? Not absolutely convinced Markram is a test opener long-term and it gives the opportunity to blood a new opener with a senior guy at the top of the order

Think Dean is a very good vice captain type. Probably too much with the boys and practical joker in the dressing room for me. It is harsh but in his previous captaincy appearances the difference to him and Faf is clear and Dean has been a captain before for SA u19s, Knights , Titans, Surrey etc so he probably doesn't have enough about him in leadership for this group other than through attitude and example.

Quinton de Kock (he may surprise a few) or Aiden Markram has to be the next captain for me. But right now I don't think the captaincy is the best thing for Markram or maybe I am under-estimating his toughness. He is the closest thing we have to steely determination exterior.

 

[artvandalay]

I'd actually stick with De Bruyn rather than Bavuma. The guy actually looks like he could amount to something. Even Ab had a lukewarm beginning to his career, give him at least until the end of the England series.

 

[SeamUp]

This was a request by CSA, indicating that they are unlikely to want QDK to drop the gloves.

I agree on the conversion rate. hence the comment. Only mitigation is that he has been consistently fighting rear guard actions and been left stranded a few times. But would like to see him at SA 'A' level first.

My problem with going for these inbetweeners is simple. It is going to take at least 2 years and 20+ tests for new players to really gain experience. We rebuilding from scratch. I don't think that Veryenne or Rassie will be adding a great deal to SA test team in 2 years time. Probably be good players with an avg hovering near to the 40's and the SA test team will be in the same position. Players even with FC experience (particularly with our weaker domestic structures) are still going to take time to get comfortable at test level. Right now we have some highly talented youngsters that have greater potential to get to the 50 avg. Lets give them the 2 years to develop rather than waiting, because they are unlikely to walk into the Test team and do well straight away. Few have done that. de Villers avg 35 after 28 tests, Kallis avg 41 after 32 tests. It takes time, lets not waste it.


I do care about winning tests now.... I care more about rebuilding to a great team.

I do get where you are coming from. But I also think we need to change the environment and get that winning culture back. Unfortunately SA cricket has had more important needs than winning. If we can somehow build a team of fighters to back our 3/4/5 very good players we could then get into a situation where introducing young talent in 12-24 months time like Breetzke, van Tonder, Qeshile, Coetzee & co could be better for them to get a few seasons and some 100s under their belts and a couple of A tours etc

As ever it is a fine balance but right now I think van der Dussen might be the guy to give the young guys breathing space and you know me - I am a big believer in not wasting time with older players with a mediocre to good ceiling but if vd Dussen puts up the numbers for the Lions in these next few games I am willing to back him v England.

 

[SeamUp]

The issue with Qeshile is it seems he won't even be keeping for the Warriors. I imagine he's going to be a specialist batsman in the long-term, so bringing him in as a keeper wouldn't make sense.

I'm also not sure he's ready to play Tests yet considering his conversion issues at domestic level. I'd somewhat like seeing younger players get a chance but I'm not sure van Tonder or Breetzke should be shoved in yet. They probably need some more professional cricket under their belt to be prepared completely.

Verreyne has probably reached the point that he's worth a punt; Rassie would be the "safer" option if we want to develop the youngsters further.

A lot to like about Verreynne and what he has produced but right now I would see him as nothing but a keeper/batsmen. He still needs to score a FC 100 for the Cobras. Qeshile is the same for the Warriors. That is not taking anything away from those two because their ability and consistency is there for all to see but their output probably matches up to a keeper/batsman than a pure test batsman at this stage.

 

[MrPrez]

Yeah I'd love to see our youngsters in early but I'm nervous of putting players in before they're ready. You can ruin a player by putting them in before they're mentally ready for Test cricket - particularly a batsman.

If they were ready then sure. But I think they're not experienced enough yet.

That's the only reason I said Verreyne is a maybe, ftr. He's simply a bit more experienced and established, if not as much of a long-term star possibility.

 

[StephenZA]

So as far as Test cricket goes... we play the 4 match Eng series in Dec/Jan. Then 2 matches in July against WI. Before SA sees a packed schedule in 2021. That leaves SA with 6 test matches in he next 15 months. So unless, in the highly unlikely even that changes get made during Eng tour, we not going to see any changes beyond Mulder maybe Hamza gets a run, So this is all a bit pointless because by the time 2021 comes Faf is gone and will likely only get a chance to rebuild then.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Yeah it's just baffling how Mulder hasn't got an opportunity. It's ok during an era where the core of the middle order was based around Amla, Kallis, AB, Prince, Duminy and Boucher (probably around 2008-2013) who were all good to world class and there was probably better provincial depth, but not now - its really inexcusable he's not playing
Are SA selectors just ultra conservative, as they debuted AB, Steyn, Smith and Morkel (to name four recent examples) when they were quite raw and hadn't played loads of FC games?