The great 1980s all rounders

[Burgey]

I didn't realise that about BW. And trundler is a kid. That leaves only Smali. All of them are quality posters by the way.

Mate, plz

 

[TheJediBrah]

Are we still believing that trundler is actually a kid, and from Pakistan?

 

[kyear2]

Excellent post this. To add to it, Kapil averaged better with the ball than Imran in 3 countries (India, WI and Aus). I think people who feel Botham is over-rated tend to over rate Imran. I have also fallen to it admittedly.

Having said that, Imran is still and ATG bowler(as you have mentioned). Top 10 of all time for me though no where close to top 3 or top 5. Hadlee absolutely belongs to top 3 and there is a clear case for picking him above Imran in an ATG XI if only one slot is available. I generally pick both as it gives me the luxury of #bat deep without too much dip in bowling quality.

On a side note, funny to think that PakPassion considers Imran a better bowler than Mcgrath, Ambrose,Steyn,Hadlee and Donald. Some even consider him better than Marshall

Not all together sure about top 10, but just not absolute top tier for me. Just purely from the top of my head.

Marshall, McGrath, Steyn, Hadlee, Ambrose, Lillee, Warne, Murali, O'Reilly holding that status.Trueman and Donald there about as well. Definitely in the next group though. Lindwall, Holding, Davidson, Akram, Imran, Barnes, Miller etc

 

[h_hurricane]

Are we still believing that trundler is actually a kid, and from Pakistan?

That is what he says and there is no way to invalidate that. His posts are for sure more than a kid can write though. Has been on a lull of late. Not keeping up with his 30 posts a day average.

 

[h_hurricane]

Not all together sure about top 10, but just not absolute top tier for me. Just purely from the top of my head.

Marshall, McGrath, Steyn, Hadlee, Ambrose, Lillee, Warne, Murali, O'Reilly holding that status.Trueman and Donald there about as well. Definitely in the next group though. Lindwall, Holding, Davidson, Akram, Imran, Barnes, Miller etc

You are missing Garner. Extremely under rated. Or may be he is part of "etc".

 

[ankitj]

Are we still believing that trundler is actually a kid, and from Pakistan?

He is Shahid Afridi of this forum.

 

[smash84]

Oh God, kyear2 back to peddling his revisionism. All his posts should belong in the revisionism thread.

The irony if him downgrading Imrans record due to bad umpiring is probably lost on him. WI had pretty **** umpiring in the 1980s. In fact Pakistan didn't win the series because Viv was plumb lbw and wasn't given in the final of the series.

As for the rest of his nonsense. It will require a detailed response.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Oh God, kyear2 back to peddling his revisionism. All his posts should belong in the revisionism thread.

The irony if him downgrading Imrans record due to bad umpiring is probably lost on him. WI had pretty **** umpiring in the 1980s. In fact Pakistan didn't win the series because Viv was plumb lbw and wasn't given in the final of the series.

As for the rest of his nonsense. It will require a detailed response.

It really doesn't.

 

[the big bambino]

28 in Oz, 24 in Eng and 25 in the Carribean (and remembering how good the WI were then) is the record of an ATG bowler.

 

[Bolo]

Very good point. Would completely rule him out as an ATG bowler from any side I'd pick from here on in. Glaring holes in his record. Basically, he's been blown out of proportion and completely mythologized. I recall when he was here as Pakistan skipper at one point in the 80s, I remember him being referred to as the Lion of Lahorein commentary, and Billy Lawry saying "He's a bit of a *****cat really, isn't he?" and now I can understand why. That record has more holes than Swiss cheese for a supposed ATG bowler. The bloke is no more than ATVG on those numbers. I love this. Allows me to have Wasim comfortably ahead of him as my all time favourite and best Pakistan bowler.

This criticism applies to wasim practically as much as imran.

 

[smash84]

It really doesn't.

You're right. It will be a total waste of effort.

 

[smash84]

This criticism applies to wasim practically as much as imran.

It applies even more to wasim

 

[vcs]

That is what he says and there is no way to invalidate that. His posts are for sure more than a kid can write though. Has been on a lull of late. Not keeping up with his 30 posts a day average.

His school holidays are probably over. No doubt he will make up for it in the Ashes threads over the weekend.

 

[the big bambino]

As I would have said, Miller was arguably the best ever genuine all rounder and an ATG cricketer but he probably shouldn't be seen as say a bowler of the very top tier.

I hope its not its just because I'm an Australian but I rate him an ATG bowler. I mean that average is hard to counter. Have to remember he missed some potentially golden years in the 40s and he bowled well into his mid to late 30s. He could bowl cutters and off spinners as well as express. So he had speed, guile, longevity and deprived of opportunities that would have coincided with him being at his fastest.

 

[smash84]

I hope its not its just because I'm an Australian but I rate him an ATG bowler. I mean that average is hard to counter. Have to remember he missed some potentially golden years in the 40s and he bowled well into his mid to late 30s. He could bowl cutters and off spinners as well as express. So he had speed, guile, longevity and deprived of opportunities that would have coincided with him being at his fastest.

From what I have read Miller was a better batsman than his average suggests. And worse bowler than what the average suggests too. Unfortunately not too many people remaining who watched him play.

Richie Benaud saw him play a fair bit (played with him too???) And preferred Imran over him. Mostly for the bowling, since he already had sobers as the batting all rounder.

 

[srbhkshk]

Were Pakistani pitches particularly favorable to pace during Imran's time? Because if not, an average of 19 in Pakistan pretty much makes him a top tier ATG bowler right there. The umpiring is a bit of a factor - but it helped other countries too (maybe not to the same degree I suppose.)

 

[kyear2]

Oh God, kyear2 back to peddling his revisionism. All his posts should belong in the revisionism thread.

The irony if him downgrading Imrans record due to bad umpiring is probably lost on him. WI had pretty **** umpiring in the 1980s. In fact Pakistan didn't win the series because Viv was plumb lbw and wasn't given in the final of the series.

As for the rest of his nonsense. It will require a detailed response.

And England didn't loose the last test because a LBW decision also wasn't given in the penultimate over, but you do love to use that one example over and over.

With regards to "the rest of the nonsense", they are his stats. There isn't any revisiting or cherry picking. That's it. Period.

The fact that you don't like it, doesn't make it inaccurate or unfair.

 

[kyear2]

28 in Oz, 24 in Eng and 25 in the Carribean (and remembering how good the WI were then) is the record of an ATG bowler.

And where did I say he wasn't. I had a subsequent post where I placed him just outside of the top 10 and definitely in the top 20 bowlers of all time.

Where those numbers though definitely doesn't place him is the discussion as the greatest fast bowler ever or in the very top tier of greats, though I would give you the 25 vs the W.I as not being horrible. Though TBH we only had 1 ATG batsman, one ATG opener and 1 other great / above average batsman who retired to give Viv the captaincy, the batting wasn't the reason we were the best. So from that perspective those numbers just doesn't cut it. Compare them to some of the aforementioned bowlers.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I know I'm going to get hammered for this, but it's fine.

In this thread we have critisized Viv's consistency, overall stats and his performance after the mid 1980s.
Bradman has been (justifyably) more of less discounted from this exercise. Some have suggested that Sachin was simply just not a good enough batsman to qualify.

With the exception of the oft repeated argument that he never quite excelled with both bat and booze in hand at the same time, Sobers has for the most part escaped scrutiny.

Yes some may have mentioned in isolation (and in a different context) the helpful home umps and the high number of not outs (and consequent draws), but a true examination of his batting is glaringly lacking here. And before I go any further let me just state as I have before. He is a great batsman, even ATG but for me the comparisons to Sachin (and by extension the other top tier batsmen) are not totally warranted.

Even a cursory glance at his batting stats shows somewhat of a disparity between his home and away stats (67 vs 51) Ok, that alone in itself isn't that strange and can often be easily explained away by helpful home conditions etc, but let's look deeper.

He averaged 67 in West indies, but didn't average above 54, yes 54 in another country besides lowly minnows India. He averaged 46 in Australia,53 in England, 99 in India, 15 in New Zealand and 32 in the Pakistan.
To be honest if not for his average of 83 vs India his overall average wouldn't even be as good as it is.

And while those numbers are not horrible by any means, it's not exactly befitting if a player almost unanimously placed in every ATG team on the forum (though he does make less of those made by journalists and past players) unless of course they are playing each game in West indies.

So in my mind, it's pretty clear that it's not a stretch to say that Ravi Jadeja may just be the best all rounder in cricket history with the cleanest record of them all.

 

[mr_mister]

Are we still believing that trundler is actually a kid, and from Pakistan?

I'd never questioned it, but he does seem quite well spoken for a high schooler who's first language isn't English

I'd just assumed he was really smart