The great 1980s all rounders

[Coronis]

Averages in tests featuring Marshall, Holding and Garner.

Averages in Tests featuring Roberts, Holding, Garner and Croft.

Clearly Hadlee is the best batsman of the 4.

 

[Slifer]

Off topic but invariably, Malcom Marshall played his his entire career with any two (or 3) of the following bowlers as competition for wickets: Croft, Roberts, Holding, Walsh, Bishop, Ambrose, Patterson, Garner. And still up til about 70 tests he averaged around 5 wpm. Wag

 

[TheJediBrah]

Holding, Garner, Croft, Roberts, Marshall, Walsh played together quite a lot in various combinations. They all have a WPM of >4. The premise is flawed.

Is WPM of 4 particularly impressive? For an average Test bowler, definitely, especially in weaker sides that don't often take 20 wickets. For a strong team like WI who usually just fielded 4 bowlers (and maybe a bit of part-timers) you'd expect at least a wpm of 4 wouldn't you?

 

[kyear2]

This is right up there with Jadeja is better than Lillee because Lillee bowled in the WI once with a busted back.

Just looking quickly through Miller's matches v England there are 4 matches where he only bowled 14 overs. Another in Sydney in 46/47 where the spinners did the bowling and took the wickets. I'd imagine that's part of the reason behind this wpm business. Australia had great options back then and Miller played as a batsman just as much as a bowler. Against Eng again he spent most of his time in the top six and sometimes at three. In short he was a batsmen too. No captain is going to over bowl one of their best batsmen (even if he is also one of the side's best bowlers) if he can be used judiciously and the opposition is still getting bowled out by the others.

That's the explanation behind the wpm. He was effectively playing as a batsman. In fact based on this I'd say he'd nudge Imran. WPM is just a bit of flotsam for some desperadoes to cling.

Yes Miller was an ATG player. No doubt. I in no way dispute that. He was a very good bowler and a good batsman and was a good as a genuine all rounder as one could imagine.

But as far as your arguments are concerned. If you are one of your teams best two bowlers, you don't generally bowl only 14 overs. Would you generally ever only bowl McGrath or Marshall only 14 overs in match unless they were hurt? No.

With regards to the argument whether a captain would ever over bowl his best batsman, take a look at how many overs Sobers bowled in some matches. Not saying it was smart, but it happens.

 

[the big bambino]

Yes Miller was an ATG player. No doubt. I in no way dispute that. He was a very good bowler and a good batsman and was a good as a genuine all rounder as one could imagine.

But as far as your arguments are concerned. If you are one of your teams best two bowlers, you don't generally bowl only 14 overs. Would you generally ever only bowl McGrath or Marshall only 14 overs in match unless they were hurt? No.

With regards to the argument whether a captain would ever over bowl his best batsman, take a look at how many overs Sobers bowled in some matches. Not saying it was smart, but it happens.

See i don't think captains look at their side and adopt their strategies in the way bloggers do. A captain would recognise Miller's talents and employ them to best suit the team. So as long as the other bowlers were taking wickets then yeah, I don't think a captain would bowl him. Take as an example a Sydney match where Miller bowled only a little. Australia won and the wickets taken by McCool, Johnson and some other bloke. Good bowlers but none of them the equal to Miller. But they did the job, allowed the captain to best utilise the talents of the team and record a win.

 

[kyear2]

See i don't think captains look at their side and adopt their strategies in the way bloggers do. A captain would recognise Miller's talents and employ them to best suit the team. So as long as the other bowlers were taking wickets then yeah, I don't think a captain would bowl him. Take as an example a Sydney match where Miller bowled only a little. Australia won and the wickets taken by McCool, Johnson and some other bloke. Good bowlers but none of them the equal to Miller. But they did the job, allowed the captain to best utilise the talents of the team and record a win.

Agreed.

But Miller was different in so many ways and that made him harder to evaluate. Lindwall was the better bowler, don't think anyone disputes that, but Miller was used more favorably. He generally bowled shorter spells and more often than not, only with the new ball. He didn't have to deal with the spells with the ooder ball when it wasn't as helpful.

As I would have said, Miller was arguably the best ever genuine all rounder and an ATG cricketer but he probably shouldn't be seen as say a bowler of the very top tier.

 

[kyear2]

I know I'm going to get hammered for this, but it's fine.

In this thread we have critisized Botham's consistency, overall stats and his performance both vs the W. I and after WSC.
Kapil has been (justifyably) more of less discounted from this exercise. Some have suggested that Hadlee was simply just not a good enough batsman to qualify.

With the exception of the oft repeated argument that he never quite excelled with both bat and ball at the same time, Imran has for the most part escaped scrutiny.

Yes some may have mentioned in isolation (and in a different context) the helpful home umps and the high number of not outs (and consequent draws), but a true examination of his bowling is glaringly lacking here. And before I go any further let me just state as I have before. He is a great bowler, even ATG but for me the comparisons to Hadlee (and by extension the other top tier bowlers) are not totally warranted.

Even a cursory glance at his bowling stats shows somewhat of a disparity between his home and away stats. Ok, that alone in itself isn't that strange and can often be easily explained away by helpful home conditions etc, but let's look deeper.

He averaged 19 in Pakistan, but didn't average below 24, yes 24 in another country besides lowly minnows Sri Lanka. He averaged 28 in Australia, 24 in England, 28 in India, 26 in New Zealand and 25 in the Caribbean.
To be honest if not for his average of 14 vs Sri Lanka his overall average wouldn't even be as good as it is.

And while those numbers are not horrible by any means, it's not exactly befitting if a player almost unanimously placed in every ATG team on the forum (though he does make less of those made by journalists and past players) unless of course they are playing each game in Pakistan. And all of this before the ball tampering et all is even factored in.

So in my mind, it's pretty clear that it's not a stretch to say that Hadlee may just be the best all rounder if the 80' s with the cleanest record of them all.

 

[the big bambino]

I guess its how you look at it but I think those away stats are acceptable for an ATG bowler.

 

[Coronis]

I know I'm going to get hammered for this, but it's fine.

In this thread we have critisized Botham's consistency, overall stats and his performance both vs the W. I and after WSC.
Kapil has been (justifyably) more of less discounted from this exercise. Some have suggested that Hadlee was simply just not a good enough batsman to qualify.

With the exception of the oft repeated argument that he never quite excelled with both bat and ball at the same time, Imran has for the most part escaped scrutiny.

Yes some may have mentioned in isolation (and in a different context) the helpful home umps and the high number of not outs (and consequent draws), but a true examination of his bowling is glaringly lacking here. And before I go any further let me just state as I have before. He is a great bowler, even ATG but for me the comparisons to Hadlee (and by extension the other top tier bowlers) are not totally warranted.

Even a cursory glance at his bowling stats shows somewhat of a disparity between his home and away stats. Ok, that alone in itself isn't that strange and can often be easily explained away by helpful home conditions etc, but let's look deeper.

He averaged 19 in Pakistan, but didn't average below 24, yes 24 in another country besides lowly minnows Sri Lanka. He averaged 28 in Australia, 24 in England, 28 in India, 26 in New Zealand and 25 in the Caribbean.
To be honest if not for his average of 14 vs Sri Lanka his overall average wouldn't even be as good as it is.

And while those numbers are not horrible by any means, it's not exactly befitting if a player almost unanimously placed in every ATG team on the forum (though he does make less of those made by journalists and past players) unless of course they are playing each game in Pakistan. And all of this before the ball tampering et all is even factored in.

So in my mind, it's pretty clear that it's not a stretch to say that Hadlee may just be the best all rounder if the 80' s with the cleanest record of them all.

I mean if you’re defining an all rounders greatness by their primary skill, Hadlee is no contest the best of the 4. But thats not how the majority of people rate all rounders.

 

[Burgey]

I know I'm going to get hammered for this, but it's fine.

In this thread we have critisized Botham's consistency, overall stats and his performance both vs the W. I and after WSC.
Kapil has been (justifyably) more of less discounted from this exercise. Some have suggested that Hadlee was simply just not a good enough batsman to qualify.

With the exception of the oft repeated argument that he never quite excelled with both bat and ball at the same time, Imran has for the most part escaped scrutiny.

Yes some may have mentioned in isolation (and in a different context) the helpful home umps and the high number of not outs (and consequent draws), but a true examination of his bowling is glaringly lacking here. And before I go any further let me just state as I have before. He is a great bowler, even ATG but for me the comparisons to Hadlee (and by extension the other top tier bowlers) are not totally warranted.

Even a cursory glance at his bowling stats shows somewhat of a disparity between his home and away stats. Ok, that alone in itself isn't that strange and can often be easily explained away by helpful home conditions etc, but let's look deeper.

He averaged 19 in Pakistan, but didn't average below 24, yes 24 in another country besides lowly minnows Sri Lanka. He averaged 28 in Australia, 24 in England, 28 in India, 26 in New Zealand and 25 in the Caribbean.
To be honest if not for his average of 14 vs Sri Lanka his overall average wouldn't even be as good as it is.

And while those numbers are not horrible by any means, it's not exactly befitting if a player almost unanimously placed in every ATG team on the forum (though he does make less of those made by journalists and past players) unless of course they are playing each game in Pakistan. And all of this before the ball tampering et all is even factored in.

So in my mind, it's pretty clear that it's not a stretch to say that Hadlee may just be the best all rounder if the 80' s with the cleanest record of them all.

Very good point. Would completely rule him out as an ATG bowler from any side I'd pick from here on in. Glaring holes in his record. Basically, he's been blown out of proportion and completely mythologized. I recall when he was here as Pakistan skipper at one point in the 80s, I remember him being referred to as the Lion of Lahorein commentary, and Billy Lawry saying "He's a bit of a *****cat really, isn't he?" and now I can understand why. That record has more holes than Swiss cheese for a supposed ATG bowler. The bloke is no more than ATVG on those numbers. I love this. Allows me to have Wasim comfortably ahead of him as my all time favourite and best Pakistan bowler.

 

[Burgey]

I guess its how you look at it but I think those away stats are acceptable for an ATG bowler.

No! They're James Anderson level. ATVG - no more than that.

 

[Coronis]

Oh god I’d forgotten about ATVG

 

[h_hurricane]

I know I'm going to get hammered for this, but it's fine.

In this thread we have critisized Botham's consistency, overall stats and his performance both vs the W. I and after WSC.
Kapil has been (justifyably) more of less discounted from this exercise. Some have suggested that Hadlee was simply just not a good enough batsman to qualify.

With the exception of the oft repeated argument that he never quite excelled with both bat and ball at the same time, Imran has for the most part escaped scrutiny.

Yes some may have mentioned in isolation (and in a different context) the helpful home umps and the high number of not outs (and consequent draws), but a true examination of his bowling is glaringly lacking here. And before I go any further let me just state as I have before. He is a great bowler, even ATG but for me the comparisons to Hadlee (and by extension the other top tier bowlers) are not totally warranted.

Even a cursory glance at his bowling stats shows somewhat of a disparity between his home and away stats. Ok, that alone in itself isn't that strange and can often be easily explained away by helpful home conditions etc, but let's look deeper.

He averaged 19 in Pakistan, but didn't average below 24, yes 24 in another country besides lowly minnows Sri Lanka. He averaged 28 in Australia, 24 in England, 28 in India, 26 in New Zealand and 25 in the Caribbean.
To be honest if not for his average of 14 vs Sri Lanka his overall average wouldn't even be as good as it is.

And while those numbers are not horrible by any means, it's not exactly befitting if a player almost unanimously placed in every ATG team on the forum (though he does make less of those made by journalists and past players) unless of course they are playing each game in Pakistan. And all of this before the ball tampering et all is even factored in.

So in my mind, it's pretty clear that it's not a stretch to say that Hadlee may just be the best all rounder if the 80' s with the cleanest record of them all.

Excellent post this. To add to it, Kapil averaged better with the ball than Imran in 3 countries (India, WI and Aus). I think people who feel Botham is over-rated tend to over rate Imran. I have also fallen to it admittedly.

Having said that, Imran is still and ATG bowler(as you have mentioned). Top 10 of all time for me though no where close to top 3 or top 5. Hadlee absolutely belongs to top 3 and there is a clear case for picking him above Imran in an ATG XI if only one slot is available. I generally pick both as it gives me the luxury of #bat deep without too much dip in bowling quality.

On a side note, funny to think that PakPassion considers Imran a better bowler than Mcgrath, Ambrose,Steyn,Hadlee and Donald. Some even consider him better than Marshall

 

[h_hurricane]

No! They're James Anderson level. ATVG - no more than that.

Clouderson does average more than 30 in many countries though.

 

[Burgey]

Then again, IndPassion thinks Kapil Dev is the best of the 80s all rounders, so you know.

 

[h_hurricane]

Then again, IndPassion thinks Kapil Dev is the best of the 80s all rounders, so you know.

I don't think a large percentage of ICF thinks that way. But in PP, the general consensus seems that Imran is a top 3 fast bowler of all time.

A good percentage of Pak fans in CW are pretty neutral though. Good to see.

 

[mr_mister]

There's hardly any Pak fans here though

Other than Black warrior, trundler and smali who are regulars? And black warrior is mia

 

[ankitj]

I don't think a large percentage of ICF thinks that way. But in PP, the general consensus seems that Imran is a top 3 fast bowler of all time.

A good percentage of Pak fans in CW are pretty neutral though. Good to see.

I would have thought Pakistani fans (and Indian fans too) regard Wasim Akram as greatest fast bowler of all time. I have seen that being stated many times by subcontinent fans.

 

[h_hurricane]

I would have thought Pakistani fans (and Indian fans too) regard Wasim Akram as greatest fast bowler of all time. I have seen that being stated many times by subcontinent fans.

In PP, as a pure bowler, Imran is rated a bit higher than Wasim, though every one there agrees Akram was more skillful.

 

[h_hurricane]

There's hardly any Pak fans here though

Other than Black warrior, trundler and smali who are regulars? And black warrior is mia

I didn't realise that about BW. And trundler is a kid. That leaves only Smali. All of them are quality posters by the way.