The great 1980s all rounders

[aussie tragic]

Why do we need to take out one part of someone's career just to make him look better than he is ? We all agree he was awesome in the first half

Stating the facts for his first 42 Tests which is in the record books is not the same as these people who cherry pick someone's best 50 tests to make someone look better

 

[h_hurricane]

Stating the facts for his first 42 Tests which is in the record books is not the same as these people who cherry pick someone's best 50 tests to make someone look better

These are the records of a select few cricketers after 42 matches. So Jadeja must be a greater cricketer than Kapil,Imran and Hadlee even if he goes on to have a Botham like decline going forward.

Botham 31.95 20.93 Difference 11.02

Jadeja 32.85 23.98 Difference 8.87

Kapil 33.10 29.25 Difference 3.85

Imran 27.01 25.42 Difference 1.59

Hadlee 23.42 25.91 Difference -2.49

 

[Coronis]

Procter is the best and we all know it.

Also I know icc ratings arent perfect but they can be interesting.

Sobers 669 (1967)
Botham 646 (1980)
Kallis 616 (2002)
Imran 518 (1983)
Miller 573 (1952)
Dev 433 (1981)
Hadlee 483 (1987)
Pollock 490 (2003)
Shakib 489 (2017)
Faulkner 501 (1911)
Greig 509 (1975)
Goddard 469 (1967)
Benaud 532 (1959)

 

[GIMH]

Procter is the best and we all know it.

Also I know icc ratings arent perfect but they can be interesting.

Sobers 669 (1967)
Botham 646 (1980)
Kallis 616 (2002)
Imran 518 (1983)
Miller 573 (1952)
Dev 433 (1981)
Hadlee 483 (1987)
Pollock 490 (2003)
Shakib 489 (2017)
Faulkner 501 (1911)
Greig 509 (1975)
Goddard 469 (1967)
Benaud 532 (1959)

Flintoff 501 (2005)

 

[stephen]

Being an all rounder is hard. Props to all those guys. Imagine having two professions at once that you're at the top of.

 

[trundler]

All rounders are just indecisive. Pick a side and stick to it..

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Flintoff 501 (2005)

Cairns 500 (2000)

Vettori 412 (2009) thought that might've been higher

 

[tony p]

australia has not had a decent test allrounder since alan davidson. ( he averaged 25 with the bat & 20 with the ball in 44 tests) ( WICKETKEEPERS DON'T COUNT IN MY BOOK). sorry gilly.

we are still looking for one. gilmour, watson, g. matthews, m marsh, never convinced as allrounders.( their bowling records aren't good enough, although gilmour only played 15 tests)

does anyone think that warne, mitchell johnson or mitch starc are allrounders, i don't.

an allrounder MUST be able to be played for his BOWLING, with him able to score runs at 7 or 8.in my opinion.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

When I saw that this thread had been resurrected I thought someone must have posted that Ben Stokes is better than all of them.

 

[Coronis]

When I saw that this thread had been resurrected I thought someone must have posted that Ben Stokes is better than all of them.

Surely at least better than Kapil.

 

[marc71178]

When I saw that this thread had been resurrected I thought someone must have posted that Ben Stokes is better than all of them.

No it's just PFK's multis.

 

[rtramdas]

On a surface level , I always has wondered as to how Kapil can be placed below Botham in the pecking order. This is because , if we categorise their working disciplines as test batting, test bowling,ODI batting, ODI bowling, fielding & captaincy I cannot find Botham exceeding in a single one of these.

The only one area where Botham can be placed above Kapil with out going deeper is test batting. 14 100s to Kapil's 8. But for me , that too tilts a bit in favour of Kapil because of huge str:, not much difference in >75 scores( only 16:15 in favour of Botham) , Kapil's far superior track record in Windies .

In all other areas Kapil leads quite comfortably.

 

[h_hurricane]

I do find Botham incredibly over rated in this forum. People do cherry picking here (first 50 tests, first 40 tests) while also blissfully ignoring his poor record against WI. No sensible explanation has ever been given to his no show against the best team of his generation other than him clearly not being good enough.

On the other hand, the more consistent all rounders like Imran, Hadlee, Kapil, Pollock, Kallis do not get over glorified here.

 

[h_hurricane]

australia has not had a decent test allrounder since alan davidson. ( he averaged 25 with the bat & 20 with the ball in 44 tests) ( WICKETKEEPERS DON'T COUNT IN MY BOOK). sorry gilly.

we are still looking for one. gilmour, watson, g. matthews, m marsh, never convinced as allrounders.( their bowling records aren't good enough, although gilmour only played 15 tests)

does anyone think that warne, mitchell johnson or mitch starc are allrounders, i don't.

an allrounder MUST be able to be played for his BOWLING, with him able to score runs at 7 or 8.in my opinion.

Davidson is an extremely under-rated cricketer. Strangely, even his own country men do not lavish much praise on him. If there is an XI on under-rated ATGs, he will be an automatic choice.

 

[MrPrez]

On a surface level , I always has wondered as to how Kapil can be placed below Botham in the pecking order. This is because , if we categorise their working disciplines as test batting, test bowling,ODI batting, ODI bowling, fielding & captaincy I cannot find Botham exceeding in a single one of these.

The only one area where Botham can be placed above Kapil with out going deeper is test batting. 14 100s to Kapil's 8. But for me , that too tilts a bit in favour of Kapil because of huge str:, not much difference in >75 scores( only 16:15 in favour of Botham) , Kapil's far superior track record in Windies .

In all other areas Kapil leads quite comfortably.

Well at a "surface level," Botham has better batting and bowling averages than Kapil Dev in Test cricket (which is all anyone here is really talking about - not ODIs)


He also scored more 100s (And if you want to look further - more 50+ scores) and took more 5 wicket hauls - in 29 less tests.

I'm not saying that surface stats are necessarily enough to automatically rate players, but it's curious that you think that Kapil leads comfortably when he's below Botham in pretty much every basic stat you can think of.

 

[rtramdas]

Well at a "surface level," Botham has better batting and bowling averages than Kapil Dev in Test cricket (which is all anyone here is really talking about - not ODIs)


He also scored more 100s (And if you want to look further - more 50+ scores) and took more 5 wicket hauls - in 29 less tests.

I'm not saying that surface stats are necessarily enough to automatically rate players, but it's curious that you think that Kapil leads comfortably when he's below Botham in pretty much every basic stat you can think of.

i think I have compared & already said enough of their batting ... So no need of further briefing there . Now into test bowling .I have already posted this stats , yet posting again.

In his first 21823 balls(almost similar to Botham's full tally of 21815) where he averaged 29.11,Kapil's support bowling unit's combined avg: was only 38.8.For Botham the respective value was only 31.53. See the huge difference of 38.8 - 31.53 = 7.27. In other words when ever Kapil played a test till he bowled his first 21823 balls, he bowled along with basically 3 fellow bowlers in general (assuming the team combination is 6 batsmen + 4 bowlers in general ) who avg:ed 38.8 each, where as for Botham it was only 31.53 .Despite this huge disadvantage , Kapil averaged 23.11(ATG level) in Windies where as Botham had a paltry 39.5. Why I selected only first 21815 balls of Kapil is because it is only a matter of common sense that longevity brings down averages in general(especially for all rounders because of their multi dimensional work load). Conversely what if Botham went on to bowl 27740 balls as Kapil did? By the rate he was degrading, it wouldn't have been surprise at all if he ended up with 31.5-32 in that scenario.
Come on, for me this don't deserve even a briefing .Stats like a bit more 5wkt hauls & so and so are only a reflection of this basic contexts they played in.


And I am not entering into ODIs, captaincy etc because there is no comparison there.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

As test players

Sobers

Procter
Hadlee
Imran
Kapil
Botham
Miller
Kallis
Pollock

Allround ability

Sobers

Procter
Kapil
Botham
Miller

ODi players

Kapil
Hadlee
Pollock
Imran
Kallis
Botham
( ODI specialists not included )

Imran is the most over rated among great allrounders .

Procter , Kapil , Hadlee and Pollock are underrated.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

3. Imran Khan scored 6 centuries in 88 Test matches. He scored just 2 centuries in his first 60 Test matches.

That's almost 70% of His career. + He was not a good fielder.

 

[GIMH]

As test players

Sobers

Procter
Hadlee
Imran
Kapil
Botham
Miller
Kallis
Pollock

Allround ability

Sobers

Procter
Kapil
Botham
Miller

ODi players

Kapil
Hadlee
Pollock
Imran
Kallis
Botham
( ODI specialists not included )

Imran is the most over rated among great allrounders .

Procter , Kapil , Hadlee and Pollock are underrated.

Flintoff is miles ahead of Botham when it comes to English ODI all rounders

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Flintoff is miles ahead of Botham when it comes to English ODI all rounders

Also, Klusner better than Kallis .