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The great 1980s all rounders
- Thread starter Burgey
- Start date
NUFAN
Y no Afghanistan flag
Do you consider the 4 wickets or 80 runs more significant then the 80 runs AND 4 wickets?Hadlee, Imran and Sobers are at top! Kallis, Dev and Miller are at bottom.
Well, just tell us what we probably already know
If I had to care more about one of the stats that you provided, I would care more for the runs AND wickets in the same game when judging all rounders ability.
Anyway, you have to be realistic with the stats as there are obvious factors why it was easier for some to take 4 wickets more frequently then others.
vic_orthdox
Global Moderator
Would the second measure make Murali the greatest all-rounder of all time?I think this post belongs here better, hence reposting
Some stats to chew on. I looked at how often an all-rounder is 'useful' with the bat AND ball, and also how often he is useful with the bat OR the ball.
Useful with the bat = scores 80 or more runs in the match
Useful with the ball = takes 4 or more wkts in the match
I generally believe that each wicket is worth 20 runs (most wickets by a bowler ~800, most runs ~16000). So those cut offs are equally fair for batting and bowling all-rounders
When sorted by how often they are useful with both, this is how the top all rounders stack up:
Sobers, Miller and Botham top the table. Kallis, Dev and Pollock are bottom three.Code:[B]80 runs [U]AND[/U] 4 wkts[/B] ----------------------------------------------- Player Matches # % ----------------------------------------------- Sobers 93 15 16.1% Miller 55 6 10.9% Botham 102 11 10.8% Hadlee 86 6 7.0% Imran 88 4 4.5% Kallis 152 5 3.3% Dev 131 4 3.1% Pollock 108 3 2.8%
Next when you look at how often they are useful with either, you get:
Hadlee, Imran and Sobers are at top! Kallis, Dev and Miller are at bottom.Code:[B]80 runs [U]OR[/U] 4 wkts[/B] ----------------------------------------------- Player Matches # % ----------------------------------------------- Hadlee 86 62 72.1% Imran 88 56 63.6% Sobers 93 56 60.2% Botham 102 58 56.9% Pollock 108 61 56.5% Kallis 152 76 50.0% Dev 131 61 46.6% Miller 55 25 45.5%
Well, just tell us what we probably already know
Burgey
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Go with both. Sobers comes out on top that wayVic - That is what I was eventually going to say
Nufan - I'll go with the second table. That makes Hadlee the best all rounder and will make Burgey go nuts
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
Barnes FTW.Would the second measure make Murali the greatest all-rounder of all time?
But yeah, I'd certainly be looking more at the first table rather than the second as a clearer measure of all round greatness. And that's definitely in no way because it's the one that makes Miller look better.
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
?my rating of FAB 4 80s all rounders in the order.
1. Kapil Dev : In test batting avg:ed almost as that of Botham with a murderous str: rate of almost 81 from those bowling friendly 80s.
Has many aggressive back to the wall inns against high quality bowling attacks.And was the best of the FAB 4 in WI, the best team of their
era.
In bowling too he was mainly an one man army , he played non stop cricket for so long. More importantly didn't resort to unfair tactics like ball tampering to boost his numbers.i evaluate his avg:s based on these facts .And in WI he was at his very best just like in his batting.
To add to that the undisputed no:1 one day allrounder of the 80s,a world cup winning captain(great captain who achieved some results with the weak bowling resources at his disposal) & a brilliant over all fielder.
2. Ian Botham - Slightly better bat avg: to that of Dev. But he failed alarmingly from his usual high standards in WI, the best team of his times.And boosted his avg;s against IND(bowling wise weaker), the 2nd last team of his times.And he was not as dominant as Kapil too.
In bowling too Ian had two parts to his career .One, a great one in the company of Willis & Underwood. And the other, when thrust with responsibility of leading the bowling attack after the other 2 retired, his stats plummeled drastically.In other words bowling stats hugely boosted by great bowling support strength.And in WI, just like his batting, he was only a pale shadow.
More over he was not a great captain & clearly inferior one day all rounder to Kapil , Yes he was brilliant in the slips, but Kapil was the better over all fielder of the 2.
3.Imran Khan - test bat avg: highly inflated by huge no: of not outs. Basically a grafter with only some 48 str: rate, lacked longevity, not his usual self in WI(best team of his era). In bowling he had great support bowling strength like Botham,lacked longevity & resorted to unfair tactics to inflate his avg:.
A slightly inferior one day player to Kapil, Was the greatest captain among FAB4( i place him only slightly above Kapil in captaincy because Imran had great bowlers to support him thru out his career) & an avg: fielder.
4. Richard Hadlee - tbe best bowler of the FAB 4 when viewed thru all angles & the least batter too.Naturally the least rounded all rounder.Same
case in one dayers too. Neither was a great captain .And an above avg: fielder.
1. Kapil Dev : In test batting avg:ed almost as that of Botham with a murderous str: rate of almost 81 from those bowling friendly 80s.
Has many aggressive back to the wall inns against high quality bowling attacks.And was the best of the FAB 4 in WI, the best team of their
era.
In bowling too he was mainly an one man army , he played non stop cricket for so long. More importantly didn't resort to unfair tactics like ball tampering to boost his numbers.i evaluate his avg:s based on these facts .And in WI he was at his very best just like in his batting.
To add to that the undisputed no:1 one day allrounder of the 80s,a world cup winning captain(great captain who achieved some results with the weak bowling resources at his disposal) & a brilliant over all fielder.
2. Ian Botham - Slightly better bat avg: to that of Dev. But he failed alarmingly from his usual high standards in WI, the best team of his times.And boosted his avg;s against IND(bowling wise weaker), the 2nd last team of his times.And he was not as dominant as Kapil too.
In bowling too Ian had two parts to his career .One, a great one in the company of Willis & Underwood. And the other, when thrust with responsibility of leading the bowling attack after the other 2 retired, his stats plummeled drastically.In other words bowling stats hugely boosted by great bowling support strength.And in WI, just like his batting, he was only a pale shadow.
More over he was not a great captain & clearly inferior one day all rounder to Kapil , Yes he was brilliant in the slips, but Kapil was the better over all fielder of the 2.
3.Imran Khan - test bat avg: highly inflated by huge no: of not outs. Basically a grafter with only some 48 str: rate, lacked longevity, not his usual self in WI(best team of his era). In bowling he had great support bowling strength like Botham,lacked longevity & resorted to unfair tactics to inflate his avg:.
A slightly inferior one day player to Kapil, Was the greatest captain among FAB4( i place him only slightly above Kapil in captaincy because Imran had great bowlers to support him thru out his career) & an avg: fielder.
4. Richard Hadlee - tbe best bowler of the FAB 4 when viewed thru all angles & the least batter too.Naturally the least rounded all rounder.Same
case in one dayers too. Neither was a great captain .And an above avg: fielder.
ankitj
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Heh. I can't recall doing this at all!I think this post belongs here better, hence reposting
Some stats to chew on. I looked at how often an all-rounder is 'useful' with the bat AND ball, and also how often he is useful with the bat OR the ball.
Useful with the bat = scores 80 or more runs in the match
Useful with the ball = takes 4 or more wkts in the match
I generally believe that each wicket is worth 20 runs (most wickets by a bowler ~800, most runs ~16000). So those cut offs are equally fair for batting and bowling all-rounders
When sorted by how often they are useful with both, this is how the top all rounders stack up:
Sobers, Miller and Botham top the table. Kallis, Dev and Pollock are bottom three.Code:[B]80 runs [U]AND[/U] 4 wkts[/B] ----------------------------------------------- Player Matches # % ----------------------------------------------- Sobers 93 15 16.1% Miller 55 6 10.9% Botham 102 11 10.8% Hadlee 86 6 7.0% Imran 88 4 4.5% Kallis 152 5 3.3% Dev 131 4 3.1% Pollock 108 3 2.8%
Next when you look at how often they are useful with either, you get:
Hadlee, Imran and Sobers are at top! Kallis, Dev and Miller are at bottom.Code:[B]80 runs [U]OR[/U] 4 wkts[/B] ----------------------------------------------- Player Matches # % ----------------------------------------------- Hadlee 86 62 72.1% Imran 88 56 63.6% Sobers 93 56 60.2% Botham 102 58 56.9% Pollock 108 61 56.5% Kallis 152 76 50.0% Dev 131 61 46.6% Miller 55 25 45.5%
Well, just tell us what we probably already know
these are mere stats with out context.For instance Botham might have more such no:s vs weaker teams. But in WI how many? More over he didn't play in PAK the 2nd best team of his times. All counts.
based on the contexts they played in, based on the expertise in both formats, based on morality , my rankings
1. Kapil Dev - almost similar record to Botham in batting , but str: of almost 81 from 7nth batting position( batting in the company of tail enders and adding as much runs as possible) compared to Botham's 61 , best batter against Windies in Windies with 2 almost run a ball 100s. In bowling he was a one man army who played non stop cricket for so long as his 27740 balls suggest.So worth a 26.25 average bowler for me. Best ODI allrounder among the 4, world cup winning captain, best all round fielder of the 4
2.Botham - never rose to his best against Windies in Windies either with bat or ball.Least bowler of the 4 based on the support he got .Never was a good captain , never won a world cup, never as good a ODI player as Kapil, superb slip catcher though.
3. Imran Khan - bat avg: highly inflated by high percentage of not outs,bascially a grafter, had great bowling support unlike Kapil.More importantly, tampering allegations against him takes a lot of glow off his bowling. Again , much better ODI batsman than Botham, world cup winning captain.
4. Hadlee - best bowler of the lot & least batsman, hence the least rounder all rounder. Never captained or won a world cup
1. Kapil Dev - almost similar record to Botham in batting , but str: of almost 81 from 7nth batting position( batting in the company of tail enders and adding as much runs as possible) compared to Botham's 61 , best batter against Windies in Windies with 2 almost run a ball 100s. In bowling he was a one man army who played non stop cricket for so long as his 27740 balls suggest.So worth a 26.25 average bowler for me. Best ODI allrounder among the 4, world cup winning captain, best all round fielder of the 4
2.Botham - never rose to his best against Windies in Windies either with bat or ball.Least bowler of the 4 based on the support he got .Never was a good captain , never won a world cup, never as good a ODI player as Kapil, superb slip catcher though.
3. Imran Khan - bat avg: highly inflated by high percentage of not outs,bascially a grafter, had great bowling support unlike Kapil.More importantly, tampering allegations against him takes a lot of glow off his bowling. Again , much better ODI batsman than Botham, world cup winning captain.
4. Hadlee - best bowler of the lot & least batsman, hence the least rounder all rounder. Never captained or won a world cup
Last edited:
aussie tragic
International Captain
^ It's funny that the general opinion of fans who actually watched 80's cricket had the order as:
1. Botham
2. Imran
3. Hadlee
...............
...............
4. Dev
1. Botham
2. Imran
3. Hadlee
...............
...............
4. Dev
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Imran 1
Hadlee 2
Botham 3
Kapil 4
With South Africans included I’d go
Procter 1
Imran 2
Hadlee 3
Rice and Botham 4th equal
Kapil 6
Hadlee 2
Botham 3
Kapil 4
With South Africans included I’d go
Procter 1
Imran 2
Hadlee 3
Rice and Botham 4th equal
Kapil 6
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Since then Kallis has clearly been better than all of them.
Who comes next, Pollock or Shakib, followed by Cairns and McMillan?
Can one (or all) of Jadeja, Holder, Stokes reach this level?
Who comes next, Pollock or Shakib, followed by Cairns and McMillan?
Can one (or all) of Jadeja, Holder, Stokes reach this level?
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
Looks like the reverse order of how they performed against the best team of their generation. About apt.
i too has watched the game from 85 onwards....For your info: , a lot of fans rate Kapil very highly based on the contexts he played in . Recalling a poll a few months back in a well known cricket forum w.r.t this. Of all the 12 members voted , 10 considered Kapil the better over all all rounder among the FAB 4. Similarly we can see several messages quoting him as the best related to clippings w.r.t this topic , especially this when fair play too comes into picture.
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Was that cricket forum based in the 2nd most populous country on earth? Did a similar forum rank Tendulkar the best batsman of all time?