1st Test, Edgbaston, Birmingham

[stephen]

What a delicately poised match. Could go either way pretty quickly, or it could head to a draw.

These two have to make the bulk of Australia's runs from here on out of Australia are to win.

People have been harsh on Paine's batting, he's done pretty well in tests so far. Haddins don't come along every day.

 

[trundler]

What a delicately poised match. Could go either way pretty quickly, or it could head to a draw.

These two have to make the bulk of Australia's runs from here on out of Australia are to win.

People have been harsh on Paine's batting, he's done pretty well in tests so far. Haddins don't come along every day.

Pretty sure no one rated Haddin when he was around either, ha.

 

[stephen]

Pretty sure no one rated Haddin when he was around either, ha.

Yeah but people would be rating him up there with the best ever if it wasn't for the fact that he was replacing Gilchrist.

 

[Flem274*]

haddin is nowhere near the best ever unless only games in australia count

 

[TheJediBrah]

tbf Haddin was probably the second best keeper-batsman in the world during Gilchrist's career. Who was better?

Maybe Matt Prior? Oh and Dhoni I guess

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Google makes it seem theyl only get one session in today before a thunderstorm will hit

Which may be a bad session to bat in as if a storm is coming then it should be humid and sticky and might help the bowlers.

 

[Flem274*]

tbf Haddin was probably the second best keeper-batsman in the world during Gilchrist's career. Who was better?

Maybe Matt Prior? Oh and Dhoni I guess

sanga was still keeping during gilchrists career for a start

during haddins time in the australian side, matt prior, ms dhoni and then towards the end bj watling were easily better. i'll throw prasaana jayawardene in the mix as well. averaged a couple less, but the best with the gloves in the world during his time.

haddin has always been wildly overrated based on some ashes 50s at home in his comfort zone. he was fortunate to average 32 thanks to an abundance of home tests, let alone be called the best in the world by anyone who watches the game outside the ashes.

 

[fredfertang]

Really don't fancy having to win at Lords to get back into this series, England simply have to win this one.

Don’t fret Adders - with Jofra playing even Smith won’t be able to get any runs

 

[Prince EWS]

Haddin actually averaged less than Paine does now, and away from home he averaged the same as Healy. He was always much more likely to play an actual match-turning innings because he wasn't allergic to tons, but I'm not really convinced that's worth more at #7 than someone who will more consistently form a partnership with whichever batsman is left and enable him to do it, especially given Haddin could only do it at home and even then pretty rarely. It probably is worth more when the lower order is strong like it is now I guess, but while recognising that Paine is meh I'm definitely not pining for Haddin. He was meh as well.

 

[TheJediBrah]

sanga was still keeping during gilchrists career for a start

during haddins time in the australian side, matt prior, ms dhoni and then towards the end bj watling were easily better. i'll throw prasaana jayawardene in the mix as well. averaged a couple less, but the best with the gloves in the world during his time.

haddin has always been wildly overrated based on some ashes 50s at home in his comfort zone. he was fortunate to average 32 thanks to an abundance of home tests, let alone be called the best in the world by anyone who watches the game outside the ashes.

Never really counted Sanga or Andy Flower because they a) weren't great keepers (bit harsh on Sanga) and b) in Sanga's case he just decided not to be a keeper after a bit.

Prime Haddin was before Gilchrist retired. I don't think he was at his best after 2008 when he played most of his international cricket.

Few more counters:
- discounting the Ashes is bizarre. So his best work was in the Ashes? Why would you count that against him?
- Also Haddin played more Tests away than at home so not sure where you're getting the "thanks to an abundance of home tests" from
- BJ watling and P. Jayawardene didn't play during Gilchrist's career, so they're not candidates (I know you specified during Haddin's career, but that wasn't really what we were talking about)

edit: actually Prior didn't make his debut until after Gilly retired too. So he's not relevant either.

 

[stephen]

How many keepers in history have averaged over 30? Most who do and have been good with the gloves are considered amongst the best keepers of all time.

Haddin use ridiculously underrated even if he's not anywhere near the discussion of "best ever". Keeper batsmen of his quality don't come around every day.

It's not even really worth talking about ones as good as Gilly because they only come along once in a lifetime.

Paine has been good and has been better than expected with both gloves and bat so far in his international career.

 

[TheJediBrah]

*Rampant speculation alert*

If not for Gilchrist I think Haddin would pretty much have been a regular in the side from 2000 onwards, and I doubt he would have played anywhere near as long as he did. Again, pure speculation on my part here, but I don't see him playing much past 2010 if that's the case. How that would have affected his performances and stats know one can know. He may have averaged 40+ with the bat comfortably, he might have just ended up about the same. I expect he would have ended looking significantly better though.

 

[Starfighter]

- discounting the Ashes is bizarre. So his best work was in the Ashes? Why would you count that against him?

Standard practice. Remove the good bits of a player's career and they look bad.

 

[Flem274*]

lol so much triggering

im not discounting the ashes you sensitive zoraxes, im saying his good ashes series at home has inflated australian perceptions of his worth

idgaf what he would have done if not for gilchrist either, because it's all (exceptionally biased) speculation on your part.

one last note, sanga kept to murali on these bunsens everyone uses to discredit his superior bowling record to warne, the guy could keep.

i didn't read the rest because i get the picture, you think he was better than he really was.

 

[TheJediBrah]

lol so much triggering

don't do that tiresome millennial ****. No one is triggered or upset. Why has this become a standard response when people can't come up with a response or admit when they're mistaken? You're better than that Flem.

idgaf what he would have done if not for gilchrist either

Well that's literally exactly what I was speculating about so kind of weird that you replied in the first place

 

[the big bambino]

Overall I think England is in front. We are reliant on Smith batting above even his own magnificent average yet again. Then looking at it from England's pov I wouldn't be comfortable either. The game lies in a bracket up to the next 200 runs which I think translates into an even bet 4th innings chase.

As for Haddin, I'm presuming to interpret Stephen's comment that he has been exceptional in an Australian historical context. I agree with him. He's probably our 2nd best keeper/batsmen and if he was in the side now he'd be a danger just second to Smith to England. His average was better at home but his away record in Eng was better than his away record overall.

 

[the big bambino]

You're better than that Flem.

Like Mitch Marsh, if he was, he'd have have shown it by now

 

[Flem274*]

im not better than that lol don't even try and tell me i am, and someone needs to pour cold water on this circle jerk. your question was answered.

if you want the extended version sangakkara, dhoni, mark boucher, mid 00s mccullum was about equal (better with the gloves in all conditions, just as stupid with the bat on 40*), read was definitely better with the gloves but a lesser bat, didn't see enough of jones to comment, didn't see enough of taibu to comment, kamran akmal when he could catch was a very decent player but oh how that changed. early ramdin was a pretty meh player as was early rahim (rahim began in his teens so fair enough).

haddin played for 7 years, we know pretty confidently how good he was. he was a decent cricketer but had massive issues catching and batting away from home which is pretty unforgiveable for a test keeper. at home he was perfect for coming in at 7 on bouncy decks and his natural athleticism kept his keeping good in conditions he knew.

he's one of those cricketers you miss the safety of when your keeper position is unstable, but if say matt prior or even mushfiqur rahim were australian and ready to go in 2015/16 no one would miss him.

 

[TheJediBrah]

im not better than that lol don't even try and tell me i am, and someone needs to pour cold water on this circle jerk. your question was answered.

if you want the extended version sangakkara, dhoni, mark boucher, mid 00s mccullum was about equal (better with the gloves in all conditions, just as stupid with the bat on 40*), read was definitely better with the gloves but a lesser bat, didn't see enough of jones to comment, didn't see enough of taibu to comment, kamran akmal when he could catch was a very decent player but oh how that changed. early ramdin was a pretty meh player as was early rahim (rahim began in his teens so fair enough).

haddin played for 7 years, we know pretty confidently how good he was. he was a decent cricketer but had massive issues catching and batting away from home which is pretty unforgiveable for a test keeper. at home he was perfect for coming in at 7 on bouncy decks and his natural athleticism kept his keeping good in conditions he knew.

he's one of those cricketers you miss the safety of when your keeper position is unstable, but if say matt prior or even mushfiqur rahim were australian and ready to go in 2015/16 no one would miss him.

geez don't get triggered

 

[GotSpin]

I thought only world cup champions could post in this thread?