***Official*** English Football Season 2018-19

[wpdavid]

Arguably hoofing the ball puts it into harm's way as you're likely to be giving it to your opponent.

Rather less harmful than conceding possession to an opponent when you're the last defender, I would suggest. There's a reason why these guys aren't playing further up the park.

 

[wpdavid]

I don't like how under the offside rule as it's written, England's goal being ruled out was the correct decision. To me, the benefit of the doubt should go to the attacker and if there's part of your body level with the defender then that shouldn't be called

Yeah, no complaints from me about VAR being used correctly. It was a shame as it was a beautifully constructed 'goal', but those are the rules.

Beyond that, the 3rd/4th play-off match must be the least welcome game of the season for players and fans alike.

 

[Uppercut]

This argument feels a bit 2009. You don’t hear people making the wpdavid argument so much now that every vaguely good team in the world obsessively plays out from the back.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

There was nothing particularly wrong with Barkley sliding it back to the keeper, he just miss hit it. Stones also had an easy pass to the keeper. There might be occasions for hoofing the ball into the stand, but these instances weren’t it.

 

[andruid]

I don't like how under the offside rule as it's written, England's goal being ruled out was the correct decision. To me, the benefit of the doubt should go to the attacker and if there's part of your body level with the defender then that shouldn't be called

Are you saying the whole of the striker has to be in front of the whole of the defender?

 

[sledger]

The biggest problem with England passing out from the back is not the defenders, its that they don't have someone like Xavi to receive it

 

[Uppercut]

Just rewatching the highlights and the disallowed England goal came from Stones pulling off a risky pass out from the back.

Also Stones was marking De Ligt on the first Ajax goal.

 

[GIMH]

Manny Monthe plays it out from the back for us, I don’t think it’s some complex fancy tactic. Like anything you just have to do it with care.

England CBs should not need to resort to a hoof.

 

[Uppercut]

Manny Monthe plays it out from the back for us, I don’t think it’s some complex fancy tactic. Like anything you just have to do it with care.

England CBs should not need to resort to a hoof.

Unless you're playing on a really poor pitch, I don't think it gets any less effective as you move down levels. Players get worse technically, but they also get worse at pressing and less likely to punish your mistakes. My team isn't even in the Irish League pyramid and when we're on 4G playing out from the back is pretty clearly the right strategy.

 

[wpdavid]

This argument feels a bit 2009. You don’t hear people making the wpdavid argument so much now that every vaguely good team in the world obsessively plays out from the back.

I'm suggesting that taking on a forward when you're the last defender isn't a great idea. There are options between that and hoofing it up the park. As mentioned previously, most of them involving passing rather than trying to dribble past an opponent. I don't remember Van Dyke or de Ligt taking those sort of risks last night.

 

[sledger]

Unless you're playing on a really poor pitch, I don't think it gets any less effective as you move down levels. Players get worse technically, but they also get worse at pressing and less likely to punish your mistakes. My team isn't even in the Irish League pyramid and when we're on 4G playing out from the back is pretty clearly the right strategy.

I can even remember when I joined my local under 7s team back in the early 90s all the coaches would always tell us to play out and give us a bollocking if we tried to punt the thing.

 

[Uppercut]

I'm suggesting that taking on a forward when you're the last defender isn't a great idea. There are options between that and hoofing it up the park. As mentioned previously, most of them involving passing rather than trying to dribble past an opponent. I don't remember Van Dyke or de Ligt taking those sort of risks last night.

Yeah I mean I didn't say you were wrong. You just don't hear that case being made very often any more. It used to always be linked to skepticism towards Guardiola, so the people making it ended up looking like bell-ends.

We've sort of discovered that what instinctively feels like the right amount of risk to take is miles and miles below the real right amount of risk to take. There is still a theoretical amount of risk to take that is too much, but I can't think of a team has got there yet. Maybe England got close last night? But I don't think so, I think the problem is just that Stones is shite. Besides, it makes sense to practice passing out in this type of game.

 

[sledger]

Not that I think this is the reason for what happened yesterday or anything, but I did think the pitch looked a bit slow. Ball seemed to slow up on the turf quite a bit.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

If anything the pass to Barkley was a worse idea, apart from the fact that it reached him it had no gain. If you're not going to encourage passing it out it might just as well have lumped forward instead of passed to him.

 

[Uppercut]

If anything the pass to Barkley was a worse idea, apart from the fact that it reached him it had no gain. If you're not going to encourage passing it out it might just as well have lumped forward instead of passed to him.

De Jong received that type of pass a lot last night. It's meant to draw the opposition in and open up space elsewhere.

Again the real problem is that Barkley is shite. And receiving the first pass out of defence isn't even one of the things he's less shite at.

But yes, given that Stones ought to know that Barkley is shite, he shouldn't have played the pass.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Anyway, for the first time I can remember England have been mainly enjoyable to watch for the last 12 months. Probably a defeat to Switzerland on penalties in the 3rd place match and we can all return to normal.

 

[Furball]

Are you saying the whole of the striker has to be in front of the whole of the defender?

Yes.

Otherwise you get what look like perfectly good goals pulled back because on the 5th viewing of a replay it transpires that the striker's big toe was slightly ahead of the defender, which is ****ing impossible for a linesman to officiate. The rule as it is is also not compatible with the (admittedly ignored) principle that the benefit of the doubt goes to the attacking side, particularly when VAR is in play.

edit: either that or you borrow the 'umpire's call' idea from cricket - where there's parts of a striker's body in line with the defender then VAR doesn't overturn whatever the onfield call was.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Yeah I mean I didn't say you were wrong. You just don't hear that case being made very often any more. It used to always be linked to skepticism towards Guardiola, so the people making it ended up looking like bell-ends.

We've sort of discovered that what instinctively feels like the right amount of risk to take is miles and miles below the real right amount of risk to take. There is still a theoretical amount of risk to take that is too much, but I can't think of a team has got there yet. Maybe England got close last night? But I don't think so, I think the problem is just that Stones is shite. Besides, it makes sense to practice passing out in this type of game.

Phil McNulty on the Beeb had a thought on that subject:

Stones is renowned as a ball-playing centre-half, the sort his club manager Pep Guardiola loves. Yet the Manchester City boss preferred Vincent Kompany alongside Aymeric Laporte to close out the Premier League title win.

It was easy to see why City's boss turned to the Belgian's reliability because Stones was an accident waiting to happen all night, eventually paying the price when he was robbed attempting a 'Cruyff turn' in his penalty area - an error that led to Kyle Walker's own goal.

The modern vogue is to play the ball out from the back but it has meant, certainly in the case of Stones, Maguire and Walker, the very notion of being risk averse often disappears.

England invited trouble in like an old friend and it duly arrived. To say they made schoolboy errors is to do a disservice to schoolboys. There was talk of fatigue but England's crucial errors were down to a failure to adhere to simple defensive rules.

It may be an old-fashioned theory in the modern game, and Southgate's purist style is surely the right one, but perhaps it is time he delivered a sharp reminder there is no shame in clearing your lines.

I am a wee bit unreconstructed when it comes to defence, but sometimes the old "if in doubt, put it out" adage does still apply, surely?

But it does boil down to Stones being a bit two bob, yeah.

 

[sledger]

"Pass it but don't be a moron" probably just as suitable tbf

 

[GIMH]

It was pressure he didn't need to bring about IMO, which is why the old 'hoof' doesn't need bringing into the discussion.