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ODI ATG XIs

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Murali > Saqlain > Warne > Everyone else. (ODIs)
You are of course welcome to hold this opinion. There's not much between all three and all of them have their pros and cons inn the ODI game.

Saqlain pros: statistically the best, inventor of the doosra. cons: shortest career

Murali pros: longest career, best minnow basher. cons: not as statistically dominant as Saqlain

Warne pros: won Australia a world cup, stepped up for big games. Cons: statistically behind Saqlain.
 

ankitj

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You shouldn't think so. Murali, Saqlain, Rashid, Kuldeep, Chahal ... were/are all vastly superior. I do agree that the last three haven't played for long enough,
KulCha are great prospects especially seeing how they have gone outside subcontinent too. But it's obviously quite early.
 

ankitj

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You are of course welcome to hold this opinion. There's not much between all three and all of them have their pros and cons inn the ODI game.

Saqlain pros: statistically the best, inventor of the doosra. cons: shortest career

Murali pros: longest career, best minnow basher. cons: not as statistically dominant as Saqlain

Warne pros: won Australia a world cup, stepped up for big games. Cons: statistically behind Saqlain.
This is becoming Ikki level posting now. You know Murali's career best figure came against India? This is trash posting. Stop already.

You will be embarrassed if I posted Warne's record against India.

And Warne is behind both Saqlain and Murali statistically. Saqlain is also behind Murali on ER while ahead on average and SR. Murali was hardest to get away among them.
 
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stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
This is becoming Ikki level posting now. You know Murali's career best figure came against India? This is trash posting. Stop already.

You will be embarrassed if I posted Warne's record against India.

And Warne is behind both Saqlain and Murali statistically. Saqlain is also behind Murali on ER while ahead on average and SR. Murali was hardest to get away among them.
I was saying that being a minnow basher is a positive, all else being equal.

Look at the stats against top 8 sides. Murali and Warne have virtually identical records, with the exception that Murali played longer. 120 wickets at under 14 is notable (Murali's record versus minnows) and is a pro.

I didn't imply or say he was bad versus non- minnows, only that he had an exceptional record against minnows.

As for their economy, against top 8 nations you're talking about a difference of 0.3rpo. Three runs over the course of an entire innings. That's not a huge difference at all. Saqlain's strike rate advantage is proportionally a lot better.

Of the three, against top nations Murali had the worst strike rate. But it doesn't mean much at all because it's a very small number difference between him and Warne.

You are welcome to believe that Murali was the best ODI spinner of all time but that's not necessarily backed by the stats and it's not necessarily backed by clutch performances either.
 
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ankitj

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Only spinner with superior ER against top 8 teams and to have taken minimum 50 wickets is Roger Harper (95 wickets @ 4.03 vs. Murali's 411 wickets @4.05).
 

jimmy101

Cricketer Of The Year
Only spinner with superior ER against top 8 teams and to have taken minimum 50 wickets is Roger Harper (95 wickets @ 4.03 vs. Murali's 411 wickets @4.05).
For once statistics come through for one of the good guys.
 

Daemon

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Australians didn’t have to play against the best team in the world either. They should be docked 25% for that, it’s only fair.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Murali's ER was significantly better even though he played on until 2011 and that counts relatively more for me than average and SR in ODI (ER is what I tend to remember for top bowlers and not other stats). That's what you will mention as Murali's strength if you were being honest, not disguised slights.

Bowling records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
Only spinner with superior ER against top 8 teams and to have taken minimum 50 wickets is Roger Harper (95 wickets @ 4.03 vs. Murali's 411 wickets @4.05).
So you remember the stat that supports your argument? And you don't remember the stats that help the team more?

Even if economy is the most important ODI stat*, the difference between Murali and the other two is literally three runs per match.

Wickets help your team more than economy if you're one of the best two bowlers in your side and Murali was no slouch when it came to taking them. Wickets = match- long economy.

Honestly the difference between economy rates between the top three was so small and inconsequential I forgot to mention it. We're talking less runs per innings than a fielding error.

Unless you're arguing that Harper is also a better bowler than Saqlain and Warne.

*I don't believe this.
 
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TheJediBrah

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This is becoming Ikki level posting now. You know Murali's career best figure came against India? This is trash posting. Stop already.

You will be embarrassed if I posted Warne's record against India.

And Warne is behind both Saqlain and Murali statistically. Saqlain is also behind Murali on ER while ahead on average and SR. Murali was hardest to get away among them.
I'm not agreeing with Stephen here in general, but there's no denying that Murali benefited massively (statistically) from playing a lot of minnows. That's just a fact.

It's definitely the case in Tests, not sure about ODIs though.
 

OverratedSanity

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Australians didn’t have to play against the best team in the world either. They should be docked 25% for that, it’s only fair.
Tendulkar and dravid also never got to bash around ashish nehra and debashish mohanty. Fair enough to add atleast 20% to their averages imo.
 

ankitj

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Australians didn’t have to play against the best team in the world either. They should be docked 25% for that, it’s only fair.
Another 25% for playing with the strongest outfit. So down to 50%.

But if everyone's career stats were docked by 50%, they won't be historically the top side anymore. I like that revisionism :ph34r:
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I'm not agreeing with Stephen here in general, but there's no denying that Murali benefited massively (statistically) from playing a lot of minnows. That's just a fact.

It's definitely the case in Tests, not sure about ODIs though.
I've only been quoting ODI stats. Take the minnows out and Murali's average is less than one run different from Warne, their economy difference is .3 rpo and the strike rate difference is less than 2.

But Murali took 120 minnow wickets at under 14. That is noteworthy.
 

Borges

International Regular
Unless you're arguing that Harper is also a better bowler than Saqlain and Warne.
Hooper was a better bowler than Warne. Saqlain was a better bowler than Hooper. Murali was a better bowler than Saqlain. etc. There is no argument about that.
 

ankitj

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
So you remember the stat that supports your argument? And you don't remember the stats that help the team more?

Even if economy is the most important ODI stat*, the difference between Murali and the other two is literally three runs per match.

Wickets help your team more than economy if you're one of the best two bowlers in your side and Murali was no slouch when it came to taking them. Wickets = match- long economy.

Honestly the difference between economy rates between the top three was so small and inconsequential I forgot to mention it. We're talking less runs per innings than a fielding error.

Unless you're arguing that Harper is also a better bowler than Saqlain and Warne.

*I don't believe this.
I also only remember ERs for Aussie players like McGrath and it makes him stand out immensely. Murali played until 2011 while other 2 until 2003. You have to adjust for that. Only 3 runs a match is a silly way to look at it. Those are averages over large numbers and indicative of how much more often one is likely to bowl a seriously miserly spell compared to the others.

If anyone is keen here are the stats for the decade of 2000s which shows how stupendous Murali, McGrath and Pollock were (notice the ERs): 2000s Cricket Team Records & Stats | ESPNcricinfo.com
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Tendulkar and dravid also never got to bash around ashish nehra and debashish mohanty. Fair enough to add atleast 20% to their averages imo.
Ah but they got to bash around Warne when he was playing injured in 98/99. Which is pretty much the same thing.
 

TheJediBrah

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I've only been quoting ODI stats. Take the minnows out and Murali's average is less than one run different from Warne, their economy difference is .3 rpo and the strike rate difference is less than 2.

But Murali took 120 minnow wickets at under 14. That is noteworthy.
It definitely is. I don't think Warne was a better ODI than Murali at all but I also don't get why people are getting so triggered by the suggestion that Murali benefited from playing a lot against minnows, which is clearly true.

Hooper was a better bowler than Warne. Saqlain was a better bowler than Hooper. Murali was a better bowler than Saqlain. etc. There is no argument about that.
Hooper and Harper were different guys btw
 

ankitj

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It definitely is. I don't think Warne was a better ODI than Murali at all but I also don't get why people are getting so triggered by the suggestion that Murali benefited from playing a lot against minnows, which is clearly true.
It's a disguised slight when you put that as a strength of Murali. You can be more honest and say he was the hardest to score against, even for the side that was the best at playing spin in his day. Oh and if you are honest, also call out Warne's ordinary record against India as his weakness? This is all stupidly dishonest from Stephen and needs to be called out.
 

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