ODI ATG XIs

[OverratedSanity]

That's reasonable but I think you're just giving Tendulkar enough credit on his longevity. Better stats over a shitload more matches. That's a huge upgrade IMO.

It's not even just longevity. Tendulkar combined the attacking ability of Jayasuriya with way increased consistency. He was an absolute freak in the 1990s, with a strike rate close to 90 when precious few ere even attempting it. In that span from 1989-2002, his average was 10-15 runs ahead of anyone with a comparable SR. The one who comes closest on numbers was Anwar who averaged 40@80, and even he's well behind on both stats.

And this isn't even considering the ridiculous rate at which he was tonning up. A century every 6 ODIs or so, again miles ahead of anyone else. There are a lot of batsmen as good/close to Tendulkar in tests. But as an odi opener, there's no one even close.

 

[trundler]

It's not even just longevity. Tendulkar combined the attacking ability of Jayasuriya with way increased consistency. He was an absolute freak in the 1990s, with a strike rate close to 90 when precious few ere even attempting it. In that span from 1989-2002, his average was 10-15 runs ahead of anyone with a comparable SR. The one who comes closest on numbers was Anwar who averaged 40@80, and even he's well behind on both stats.

And this isn't even considering the ridiculous rate at which he was tonning up. A century every 6 ODIs or so, again miles ahead of anyone else. There are a lot of batsmen as good/close to Tendulkar in tests. But as an odi opener, there's no one even close.

See my follow up post..

Agree though. Guy was a legend.

 

[ankitj]

This showed up in my YouTube feed:

 

[harsh.ag]

Bowling is pretty even, even if you argue Murali > Warne, the Australian fast bowlers are better than the RoW ones with that side. Hadlee over Pollock and it's even.

Symonds was better with the bat than Klusener, Klusener was better with the ball. Bevan was as much better than Dhoni with the bat as Viv is over Ponting.

Hussey is better than anyone the world XI can bat at 7 unless Jayasuriya opens and shares the extra ten overs with Richards. Even then I'm struggling to think of a lower order batsman the world XI can bat who is as good as Hussey.

Tendulkar is a moderate upgrade on Mark Waugh as opener. Similar average but Tendulkar scored faster. Gilchrist is an upgrade on Jayasuriya with the bat. So in all the openers come out with the RoW ones fractionally ahead.

Viv-Kohli- de Villiers is superior to Ponting- Jones- Symonds by a decent margin. Bevan- Hussey is better than Dhoni- Klusener in the 6 and 7 spots.

So batting- wise the RoW XI is a little ahead, bowling is pretty even, but the fifth bowler is where the RoW really pulls ahead. Klusener is a reasonable amount better than Symonds and that's probably the biggest difference between the two sides right there.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

In all seriousness it's definitely a stretch (to say the least) to claim that an Aus ATG XI would beat a World ATG XI on any kind of regular basis. That should be obvious, how can one (relatively small) country compete with the rest of the cricketing world combined.

They'd be competitive at least though, which you can't really say about any other country's ATG XIs.

South Africa with Procter generation List A greats.

Pakistan only lacks a Dhoni / Gilly

 

[srbhkshk]

South Africa with Procter generation List A greats.

Pakistan only lacks a Dhoni / Gilly

Yeah nah, Pakistan's ATG batting is piss compared to the world XI.

 

[Bolo]

The gap between atg sides is starting to narrow somewhat. Ten year ago, you could probably make a case that Aus were close to world xi, let alone a another national side. But greats have been appearing. We've seen a few world greats, like AB, Kohli, and Dhoni. And a bunch of national greats. See the English current lineup.

Lots of country xis would be pretty competitive with each other these days, even if some are clearly stronger than others.

 

[mr_mister]

In my mind Junior and Sachin were always similar as ODI openers due to the 96 and 99 WCs, especially 96

Obviously the career strike rate increase is huge though

 

[srbhkshk]

In my mind Junior and Sachin were always similar as ODI openers due to the 96 and 99 WCs, especially 96

Obviously the career strike rate increase is huge though

Sachin had 03 and 11 though..

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Yeah nah, Pakistan's ATG batting is piss compared to the world XI.

Abbas , Miandad , Anwar , Inzy ..etc are on par with Aussie Greats

Salim Malik was one of the best Odi batsmen in 80s.

Anwar was competing with Lara and Sachin to break Haynes record of 17 centuries. And he reached 15 X 100s when Sachin and Lara was at 12 iirc.

Miandad was Beven before Beven.

Abbas stats almost matches Viv's

 

[mr_mister]

Sachin had 03 and 11 though..

Well yeah... when Junior was retired lol. If you wanna get technical and just include their record as openers in WCs Tendulkar scored his only big score in 99 @ 4(and kinda failed when opening). In WCs they played together Waugh had the better record opening.

I know I'm banging on a lot about WCs anyway, but in the 3 WCs they both played at, 92, 96 and 99, they in total scored about the same amount of runs(within 50 of each other by my quick estimate) but Junior got 4 tons to Sachin's 3.

After looking at average and strike rate, it gives these results:

Sachin

283 @ 47/84
523 @ 87/85
253 @ 42/90

Waugh

145 @ 36/100
484 @ 80/85
375 @ 41/76


So on the big stage together it's not as laughable a suggestion as it first seems to compare them. though it's possible Waugh over achieved at WCs, across these 3 they tied in 96, Sachin takes 92 and Waugh 99(and that's flipped if you compare strike rates fwiw). Though Sachin comfortably won the 92 battle, in 99 his record is greatly helped by a 140* against Kenya.

 

[trundler]

Abbas , Miandad , Anwar , Inzy ..etc are on par with Aussie Greats

Salim Malik was one of the best Odi batsmen in 80s.

Anwar was competing with Lara and Sachin to break Haynes record of 17 centuries. And he reached 15 X 100s when Sachin and Lara was at 12 iirc.

Miandad was Beven before Beven.

Abbas stats almost matches Viv's

Dude no. Just no.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Dude no. Just no.

Comparing Miandad and Beven makes more sense than comparing Mark Waugh and Sachin.

In terms of AVG and SR Abbas is miles ahead of any Aussie Batsman.

It's hard to decide between Junior and Anwar as ODi openers ( only Sachin and Lara were better in 90s )

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Viv , Lara , Lloyd , Greenidge , Garner , Ambrose , Holding ..

West Indies 11 not weak either.

 

[harsh.ag]

An All-Rounders XI. People like Tendulkar, Viv, Symonds, Yuvraj, Wasim, Hadlee are ineligible. Have to be a regular match winner with both the ball and the bat. Keeper is an exception.

Sanath Jayasuriya
Shane Watson
Jacques Kallis
Shakib Al-Hasan
Andrew Flintoff
MS Dhoni +
Lance Klusener
Kapil Dev
Shahid Afridi
Shaun Pollock
Imran Khan

Abdul Razzaq unlucky to miss out. Between him and Afridi. Unless someone can point out a better option. Weird having Imran at 11

 

[ankitj]

Well yeah... when Junior was retired lol. If you wanna get technical and just include their record as openers in WCs Tendulkar scored his only big score in 99 @ 4(and kinda failed when opening). In WCs they played together Waugh had the better record opening.

I know I'm banging on a lot about WCs anyway, but in the 3 WCs they both played at, 92, 96 and 99, they in total scored about the same amount of runs(within 50 of each other by my quick estimate) but Junior got 4 tons to Sachin's 3.

After looking at average and strike rate, it gives these results:

Sachin

283 @ 47/84
523 @ 87/85
253 @ 42/90

Waugh

145 @ 36/100
484 @ 80/85
375 @ 41/76


So on the big stage together it's not as laughable a suggestion as it first seems to compare them. though it's possible Waugh over achieved at WCs, across these 3 they tied in 96, Sachin takes 92 and Waugh 99(and that's flipped if you compare strike rates fwiw). Though Sachin comfortably won the 92 battle, in 99 his record is greatly helped by a 140* against Kenya.

Limiting to world cup. Picking 3 out of 6 that Tendulkar played. This is called cherry picking. You know better than that. In any case, Tendulkar was leading scorer in 2 and second highest scorer in 3rd. Comparison to Waugh is foolhardy. He wasn't good enough to play as many world cups to begin with.

 

[mr_mister]

Limiting to world cup. Picking 3 out of 6 that Tendulkar played. This is called cherry picking. You know better than that. In any case, Tendulkar was leading scorer in 2 and second highest scorer in 3rd. Comparison to Waugh is foolhardy. He wasn't good enough to play as many world cups to begin with.

Hang on a minute. I'm 'picking' the 3 they played together, in the 90s, which was the decade Sachin was 'an absolute freak' according to an earlier post.

Of course Sachin kicked on and had a terrific 03 and 11 while Waugh retired, and that makes him a better opener/gives him the better record.

I disagree that Waugh wasn't good enough to play more WCs though, he was 38 by 2003 so it was time to move on. Even so, I'm sure he could have handled most of the 03 bowling attacks as his form hadnt actually dipped that bad in ODIs(2002 was poor but 2001 was the strongest year of his career) though certainly Hayden could offer more in 2003. But I digress.

People were scoffing at the suggestion that Sachin was only a moderate upgrade on Waugh. 3 WCs isn't a small sample size, and the 2 they played together as openers can reveal a bit too. And in these 2, Waugh had the better record as Sachin flopped in 99 as an opener.

If it's only longevity separating them, so be it. Doesn't make Stephens statement necessarily false though.

Limiting the comparison to WCs is another story, but traditionally they're given a lot of value when assessing ODI players.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

An All-Rounders XI. People like Tendulkar, Viv, Symonds, Yuvraj, Wasim, Hadlee are ineligible. Have to be a regular match winner with both the ball and the bat. Keeper is an exception.

Sanath Jayasuriya
Shane Watson
Jacques Kallis
Shakib Al-Hasan
Andrew Flintoff
MS Dhoni +
Lance Klusener
Kapil Dev
Shahid Afridi
Shaun Pollock
Imran Khan

Abdul Razzaq unlucky to miss out. Between him and Afridi. Unless someone can point out a better option. Weird having Imran at 11

Hadlee arguably better batsman and bowler than Pollock.

 

[Zinzan]

In all seriousness it's definitely a stretch (to say the least) to claim that an Aus ATG XI would beat a World ATG XI on any kind of regular basis. That should be obvious, how can one (relatively small) country compete with the rest of the cricketing world combined.

I'd love to see an Australian ATG XI take on a Zinzan "no Australians" ATG XI

would be a really great (hypothetical) contest

 

[TheJediBrah]

South Africa with Procter generation List A greats.

Pakistan only lacks a Dhoni / Gilly

Yeah, nah

Something you don't understand?