ODI ATG XIs

[Prince EWS]

As such, I was wondering how does an economy x strike rate rank players?

This measure is literally just "average multiplied by 6", given the relationship between the three statistics. You may notice your list ended up in order of average for this reason.

 

[Victor Ian]

This measure is literally just "average multiplied by 6", given the relationship between the three statistics. You may notice your list ended up in order of average for this reason.

****ing awesome slap down. That is my funniest 'doh'. You know - i never even looked at average, though i knew it was all related in the triangle. I originally did strike rate x average, but somewhere played around with stuff and never bothered checking.

My excuse is...I'm baiting you into preparing a proper list that shows what I feel is out there - yeah that's what I was doing.

 

[Prince EWS]

****ing awesome slap down. That is my funniest 'doh'. You know - i never even looked at average, though i knew it was all related in the triangle. I originally did strike rate x average, but somewhere played around with stuff and never bothered checking.

My excuse is...I'm baiting you into preparing a proper list that shows what I feel is out there - yeah that's what I was doing.

I plan to work on a standardised averages and strike rates list for ODIs (like my Test one that I think you've seen) after I've finished simming the draft comp I ran here a couple of weeks back. So, bait successful if you like.

In the mean time I think weldone has done something similar already.

 

[Victor Ian]

I plan to work on a standardised averages and strike rates list for ODIs (like my Test one that I think you've seen) after I've finished simming the draft comp I ran here a couple of weeks back. So, bait successful if you like.

In the mean time I think weldone has done something similar already.

Cheers for your grace. You could have really sunk boots in then

What I am really wanting to answer is...how to include a batting aspect into the ranking. For example, is Pollock's better batting enough to overtake McGrath's superiority in bowling. Can Border mount a late charge into an all time great team on the back of his bowling once his batting is considered. I was surprised that he is amongst things. Certainly better than Symonds in bowling. If you can manage that, I think that would be a unique list.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Cheers for your grace. You could have really sunk boots in then

What I am really wanting to answer is...how to include a batting aspect into the ranking. For example, is Pollock's better batting enough to overtake McGrath's superiority in bowling. Can Border mount a late charge into an all time great team on the back of his bowling once his batting is considered. I was surprised that he is amongst things. Certainly better than Symonds in bowling. If you can manage that, I think that would be a unique list.

More so than in tests, comparisons to ODIs from even 20, nevermind 30/40 years ago, need accounting for the vast change in economy rates for bowlers.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Kind of like when Sachin and Ponting opened together in the IPL


too bad they were both old and kind of sucked

There was a match where Tendulkar and Ponting were batting together and Murali came on to bowl. They were all kinda terrible at that stage but it was still great to watch.

 

[vcs]

IPL stopped being fun after all the oldies like Sachin, Ponting, Lara, Laxman, Warne, Murali, Kumble, Dravid etc. who sucked at T20, retired.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Sachin wasn’t that bad in IPL was he? He wasn’t the best seeing as he was past it by that stage but remember him being ok, at least for first few years.

Ponting was trash yea.

 

[stephen]

Ok , That's your opinion.

Many people rates Akram or Garner as the greatest.
Also McGrath benefitted from playing for an unbeatable team. ( McGrath and Gilchrist are the main reasons for that though.)

There is nothing wrong in selecting Garner , Akram , Hadlee , Kapil and Saqlain combo as it's basically between Garner and McGrath. Hadlee and Kapil allrounders , Akram half allrounder and left hand variety.

For me , The Locks are

Sachin

Viv
Kohli
Abdv
Dhoni
Kapil

Akram

Lara , Hadlee , Saqlain and Garner completes the 11

I don't know how anyone could rate Akram ahead of McGrath in ODIs. He was literally worse in every stat of consequence (average, strike rate, economy rate), though not by much. McGrath took 16 more world cup wickets than Wasim in an almost identical number of matches and got player of the series in his final world cup campaign (which included three victories). Akram basically won Pakistan the 1992 world cup and is behind only McGrath and Murali on the world cup wicket takers list. So he absolutely belongs in the bowling attack, but anyone rating his accomplishments more highly than McGrath is stretching things.

Hadlee, Lillee, Garner et al are harder to rate. Coming from a different time period where batting averages were far lower and the ODI game was still being figured out. All fearsome bowlers, but is Hadlee's average of 21 as good as McGrath's average of 22? It's an interesting question and perhaps Hadlee has greater claim to the AT team than most seem to give him, especially when he was a competent number 8.

However, unquestionably, McGrath is in the top two ODI quicks of all time. Nobody can touch his world cup record.

Kapil was undoubtedly a great but he's certainly no lock. Dhoni either. Dhoni is a poor man's Bevan with the bat and doesn't necessarily offer more to a team than Gilchrist. Certainly he's not a lock, though he was very good, particularly in Asian conditions.

 

[stephen]

More so than in tests, comparisons to ODIs from even 20, nevermind 30/40 years ago, need accounting for the vast change in economy rates for bowlers.

Even five years ago the game was completely different to today.

You know the game has changed when a strike rate of 90 is seen as a pass mark for an opener today and yet Greenidge is considered a legend of the game while striking at 60.

 

[Red]

Also McGrath benefitted from playing for an unbeatable team. ( McGrath and Gilchrist are the main reasons for that though.)

 

[vcs]

Haha, "played for a dominant team" is usually a convenient way to avoid giving credit to all the members of said team. Somehow, the team did great while all of them were free-loading.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Bradman is overrated because he benefited from playing in a team that had Bradman in it

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

I don't know how anyone could rate Akram ahead of McGrath in ODIs. He was literally worse in every stat of consequence (average, strike rate, economy rate), though not by much. McGrath took 16 more world cup wickets than Wasim in an almost identical number of matches and got player of the series in his final world cup campaign (which included three victories). Akram basically won Pakistan the 1992 world cup and is behind only McGrath and Murali on the world cup wicket takers list. So he absolutely belongs in the bowling attack, but anyone rating his accomplishments more highly than McGrath is stretching things.

Hadlee, Lillee, Garner et al are harder to rate. Coming from a different time period where batting averages were far lower and the ODI game was still being figured out. All fearsome bowlers, but is Hadlee's average of 21 as good as McGrath's average of 22? It's an interesting question and perhaps Hadlee has greater claim to the AT team than most seem to give him, especially when he was a competent number 8.

However, unquestionably, McGrath is in the top two ODI quicks of all time. Nobody can touch his world cup record.

Kapil was undoubtedly a great but he's certainly no lock. Dhoni either. Dhoni is a poor man's Bevan with the bat and doesn't necessarily offer more to a team than Gilchrist. Certainly he's not a lock, though he was very good, particularly in Asian conditions.

Dhoni = Beven reliability + Gilly Aggression
Easily a better batsman than both.

For me he is a lock.

And if you consider his captaincy.. (the greatest and smartest we have seen so far.)
He is the first one to be selected.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Haha, "played for a dominant team" is usually a convenient way to avoid giving credit to all the members of said team. Somehow, the team did great while all of them were free-loading.

It's easy.. when pressure is on the opposition. You admit it or not.

Also I was speaking relatively. Comparing McGrath with Hadlee,Akram.. etc

And yes..Discounting such factors is a convenience sometimes.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Ok .. I will make it simple for you.

Imagine McGrath playing for Bangladesh,
Team will get stronger , but his stats won't be the same as he is playing with Better Bowlers , Fielders , Batsmen and Keeper

 

[stephen]

Ok .. I will make it simple for you.

Imagine McGrath playing for Bangladesh,
Team will get stronger , but his stats won't be the same as he is playing with Better Bowlers , Fielders , Batsmen and Keeper

Nah McGrath gets better because he faces half strength teams in ODIs and in tests gets to clean up the tail.

It's a bit like Hadlee, playing for a weaker team just exacerbated some of his stats (the wpm stat for tests for example).

 

[smash84]

I don't know how anyone could rate Akram ahead of McGrath in ODIs. He was literally worse in every stat of consequence (average, strike rate, economy rate), though not by much. McGrath took 16 more world cup wickets than Wasim in an almost identical number of matches and got player of the series in his final world cup campaign (which included three victories). Akram basically won Pakistan the 1992 world cup and is behind only McGrath and Murali on the world cup wicket takers list. So he absolutely belongs in the bowling attack, but anyone rating his accomplishments more highly than McGrath is stretching things.

Hadlee, Lillee, Garner et al are harder to rate. Coming from a different time period where batting averages were far lower and the ODI game was still being figured out. All fearsome bowlers, but is Hadlee's average of 21 as good as McGrath's average of 22? It's an interesting question and perhaps Hadlee has greater claim to the AT team than most seem to give him, especially when he was a competent number 8.

However, unquestionably, McGrath is in the top two ODI quicks of all time. .

You will be surprised how many people rate wasim as the greatest odi bowler ever. Even the cricketweb rankings.

Wasim is the greatest odi bowler ever imo. He bowled a lot of overs in the death and almost always dried the runs away while taking some wickets. I cbf looking up stats but I would not be surprised if wasim bowled a lot more death overs than McGrath did.

Plus McGrath had an ATG Fielding side to his disposal. Extremely important in Odis, probably more important than in tests. It definitely benefits him quite a bit.

Also weren't most of the Odis he played in Australia (a more lower scoring place than other countries?)?

Edit: btw it's very close between the two. Not like there's daylight between wasim and some of the others

 

[ankitj]

That Australian team is amazing, Australia have been lucky that a lot of their ATG players came along at the same time and they could build teams with basically no weaknesses. No wonder they won all those trophies.

Bevan and McGrath should make most all-time ODI XIs. Ponting is just unlucky that Richards and Kohli happen to exist. Same for Gilchrist with Dhoni.

The thing is not that people here hate Aussie players. Australia while great as team actually didn't have players who ended with superlative records such as:

Most runs and hundreds - Tendulkar
Most wickets - Murali
Most wickets for a fast bowler - Akram
Highest batting average - Kohli
Highest average at ridiculous strike rate in early years - Richards
Highest strike rate while averaging 50 - AB
Best bowling average and ER - Garner

2 superlatives we get from Aussie players are:

Highest average before 50+ average became commonplace - Bevan
Best burning record in world cup - McGrath

And those 2 Aussies do make it most ATG XIs. And anyone not including them, especially McGrath, is making a mistake.

 

[trundler]

Anyone not including McGrath is almost stepping into Miyagi territory tbh