*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

[Prince EWS]

Why even bother picking a guy who averages 1 wicket every first class game he plays?

Yeah it's an odd one. I get that there are several spinners unavailable, but given it's a home game and Ravindra is playing, they shouldn't have bothered with another spinner at all.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Was van Woerkom the guy who broke down before even bowling an over on FC debut? Or was that someone else

 

[nzfan]

I suppose they'll bring in some more players for the one day leg. I'd think Sean Solia and Jimmy Neesham will make the cut. Also I'm surprised they've named 15 given its a local series. Generally they'll name 13 each test I thought. Anyways you can't please everyone. I think it's fair good number of players that had been to Dubai are getting a go in home conditions.

 

[Moss]

I wish Hamish Bennett would get a chance. 24 wickets at 15 across all formats so far this summer.

Is Bennett completely out of favour? From memory he played in that tri series against IRE and BAN last year and did okay. Whenever I've checked he seems to have been collecting wickets regularly over the last couple of seasons. By rights, should probably be battling with Ferguson for one spot rather than Milne.

 

[Flem274*]

can't help but feel they've never forgiven bennett for breaking down during the test on that indian tour where phantom went ballistic but had no help at the other end, and harbhajan tonned up from 15/5 in the second innings.

 

[Flem274*]

not fussed about van woerkom. clearly in because of injury and guys being with the senior squad. there's only 6 or so guys twirling it in FC regularly so injury and NZ selection is going to empty an already dodgy cupboard.

im more resigned to the inevitability of george worker playing 100 FC matches with an average below 30 (and it's boost to 29 is severely improved by his season batting at #4 for CD and killing it). worth a look in one dayers and T20 but he'll never be a test opener unless he improves a lot.

hay, cooper, some under 19 kid they like the look of...all better picks for the A team opening spot than worker. white ball specialist and red ball middle order player imo. still would be cool for him to have a breakout knock if he can.

 

[Moss]

can't help but feel they've never forgiven bennett for breaking down during the test on that indian tour where phantom went ballistic but had no help at the other end, and harbhajan tonned up from 15/5 in the second innings.

That was a daft selection in the first place, debuting him on an unforgiving flat track. It was clear at the time that his action would render him injury prone and in any case he was picked on his List A and ODI form (his FC record was not too flash then if I remember right). Was a phase where anyone was in consideration if they were thought to be able to bowl fast (Andy McKay was also on the tour, though he bowled pretty well in his only test).

 

[nzfan]

not fussed about van woerkom. clearly in because of injury and guys being with the senior squad. there's only 6 or so guys twirling it in FC regularly so injury and NZ selection is going to empty an already dodgy cupboard.

im more resigned to the inevitability of george worker playing 100 FC matches with an average below 30 (and it's boost to 29 is severely improved by his season batting at #4 for CD and killing it). worth a look in one dayers and T20 but he'll never be a test opener unless he improves a lot.

hay, cooper, some under 19 kid they like the look of...all better picks for the A team opening spot than worker. white ball specialist and red ball middle order player imo. still would be cool for him to have a breakout knock if he can.

My question too... why is it that our boys in particular batters taking so long to settle down in international cricket? Sure you don't expect and don't want huge highs at the start then fall over but you would expect guys that have played 20-30 games would have settled down by now. I think Henry Nicholls is the only bloke to nail his spot in recent memory. Rest are there and there abouts. NZ domestic cricket quality is definitely one of the top 3 in the world along side Australia and South Africa. We have less teams, to make to domestic cricket is not all that easy so these guys should be seasoned and should take to international cricket like fish to water. Sure our spin bowling stock in domestic cricket is not all that great but I believe we have one of the best fast bowling domestic cricket set up in the world. Munro has played nearly 50 one day games at an average of 25, G Phillips averaging 15 @ SR of 100 in T20s, Tom Bruce averaging 18 @ SR of 128 (which isn't bad), Geroge worker 34 @ 71 SR (That's not bad too), CDG in one day averaging 30 @ SR 78 (surprised as I thought he smashes it) and 14 in T20s @ SR 139

Granted they haven't played lot of cricket yet but they are not young either barring Glen Phillips. Most are over 20 and almost nearing 30. You'd expect them to be consistent given their experience. Somewhere along the line we are producing a lot of batters that are just there and there abouts. If we can find a batter that can average 40+ in One day and test cricket we will be in a much better place. I'm not sure where we are going to get that from in the very near future.

 

[Gomez656]

Rohit Sharma out of India A team to newzeland.I do not think Rohit should pick on first place for test matches in Australia WITHOUT PLAYING MULI DAY GAMES in Indian domestic since last 400 days

Anyway medical team not allows him to play in Newzeland with India A team

 

[Moss]

My question too... why is it that our boys in particular batters taking so long to settle down in international cricket? Sure you don't expect and don't want huge highs at the start then fall over but you would expect guys that have played 20-30 games would have settled down by now. I think Henry Nicholls is the only bloke to nail his spot in recent memory. Rest are there and there abouts. NZ domestic cricket quality is definitely one of the top 3 in the world along side Australia and South Africa. We have less teams, to make to domestic cricket is not all that easy so these guys should be seasoned and should take to international cricket like fish to water. Sure our spin bowling stock in domestic cricket is not all that great but I believe we have one of the best fast bowling domestic cricket set up in the world. Munro has played nearly 50 one day games at an average of 25, G Phillips averaging 15 @ SR of 100 in T20s, Tom Bruce averaging 18 @ SR of 128 (which isn't bad), Geroge worker 34 @ 71 SR (That's not bad too), CDG in one day averaging 30 @ SR 78 (surprised as I thought he smashes it) and 14 in T20s @ SR 139

Granted they haven't played lot of cricket yet but they are not young either barring Glen Phillips. Most are over 20 and almost nearing 30. You'd expect them to be consistent given their experience. Somewhere along the line we are producing a lot of batters that are just there and there abouts. If we can find a batter that can average 40+ in One day and test cricket we will be in a much better place. I'm not sure where we are going to get that from in the very near future.

"NZ domestic cricket quality is definitely one of the top 3 in the world along side Australia and South Africa" - even assuming this is true (I'm not so sure), exposure to different conditions, kinds of opposition, pressure situations etc would all surely play a part in making international cricket a big step up.

" I think Henry Nicholls is the only bloke to nail his spot in recent memory." - When it comes to the batting, one offshoot of selectorial consistency is that over the last 4-5 years the batting has continued to revolve around a core of Williamson, Taylor, Latham and Guptill across formats with Raval more recently taking over Guptill's spot in tests. There have simply been no vacancies, Nicholls has taken over McCullum's spot and that's it. Sure some of the batsmen haven't come on as we would have hoped, but there hasn't been much room or promise of selection either.

About the specific players you mentioned:
Munro - Given that he seems to have cracked T20 cricket, his underperforming in ODIs seems to be a mental thing. Then again this is the very first time he is getting a consistent run in the side, so have to wait and see
Phillips - Too early a stage in his development to expect him to succeed in internationals IMO, seems like a great talent
Bruce - Don't think he is international quality, him averaging 40 plus in FC is a bit of an indictment of the domestic scene
Worker - Again decent player but not quite good enough for internationals, don't think there is any expectation mismatch in what NZ are getting out of him
CdG - Like Munro, issues seem mental more than anything else but worth noting that NZ have got more out of him in 2 years than they have from Anderson and Neesham

As to why the newer players are not taking to international cricket like fish to water, my theory is that they are mostly learning on the job (ie. at international level) and NZ are in a phase where they are being offered very little cricket (the current UAE tour is the first full overseas tour in 2 years for God's sake). From the previous cycle, guys like Williamson, Latham and Watling benefited from a rare boom in test cricket for NZ from 2012-2015 where they were playing tests on a regular basis both home and away (around 40 tests in this period, which is a lot by NZ standards). From the start of 2016, to the end of 2018 they will have played around 25 tests, mostly at home, which is a fairly significant reduction in international opportunities.

 

[Mike5181]

Maybe it's the format. Seifert, Phillips, Bruce, Chapman, etc. have mostly played T20Is. At least in test cricket and to a lesser extent ODIs you get a bit of time to play yourself in. In T20s you are expected to hit from ball one almost.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

"NZ domestic cricket quality is definitely one of the top 3 in the world along side Australia and South Africa" - even assuming this is true (I'm not so sure), exposure to different conditions, kinds of opposition, pressure situations etc would all surely play a part in making international cricket a big step up.

Your point is true, but I do think we drastically underestimate the quality of domestic cricket in NZ. There's usually plenty of players with international experience in each game, and the six teams concentrates the talent quite a bit. I've read county players saying NZ first class is equal to that. Also, maybe it's just me, but I'd take our super smash over the retirement home big bash any day of the week. I've seen plenty of players do very well in the big bash over the years who have also played super smash and done next to nothing.

 

[nzfan]

"NZ domestic cricket quality is definitely one of the top 3 in the world along side Australia and South Africa" - even assuming this is true (I'm not so sure), exposure to different conditions, kinds of opposition, pressure situations etc would all surely play a part in making international cricket a big step up.

" I think Henry Nicholls is the only bloke to nail his spot in recent memory." - When it comes to the batting, one offshoot of selectorial consistency is that over the last 4-5 years the batting has continued to revolve around a core of Williamson, Taylor, Latham and Guptill across formats with Raval more recently taking over Guptill's spot in tests. There have simply been no vacancies, Nicholls has taken over McCullum's spot and that's it. Sure some of the batsmen haven't come on as we would have hoped, but there hasn't been much room or promise of selection either.

About the specific players you mentioned:
Munro - Given that he seems to have cracked T20 cricket, his underperforming in ODIs seems to be a mental thing. Then again this is the very first time he is getting a consistent run in the side, so have to wait and see
Phillips - Too early a stage in his development to expect him to succeed in internationals IMO, seems like a great talent
Bruce - Don't think he is international quality, him averaging 40 plus in FC is a bit of an indictment of the domestic scene
Worker - Again decent player but not quite good enough for internationals, don't think there is any expectation mismatch in what NZ are getting out of him
CdG - Like Munro, issues seem mental more than anything else but worth noting that NZ have got more out of him in 2 years than they have from Anderson and Neesham

As to why the newer players are not taking to international cricket like fish to water, my theory is that they are mostly learning on the job (ie. at international level) and NZ are in a phase where they are being offered very little cricket (the current UAE tour is the first full overseas tour in 2 years for God's sake). From the previous cycle, guys like Williamson, Latham and Watling benefited from a rare boom in test cricket for NZ from 2012-2015 where they were playing tests on a regular basis both home and away (around 40 tests in this period, which is a lot by NZ standards). From the start of 2016, to the end of 2018 they will have played around 25 tests, mostly at home, which is a fairly significant reduction in international opportunities.

I had a chance to speak to Mahela and he said NZ domestic cricket is probably one of the best in the world. The only gripe he had was that runs sometimes are easy to come given the size of some of our grounds. I'd certainly think we are better than county cricket. They have way too many teams in English county and generally the quality of players barring few is not all that great. Our blokes when they make it to county do amazingly well.

I know you have marked some of the players above as not international quality but I do believe the line is very thin between domestic and international cricket for our boys. They surely can stack up. We aren't a bad cricketing nation to be honest. We have held our own for decades. Somehow we have struggled in the batting department in the last 5 years. Perhaps these are very early stages for a lot of players and as pointed out by some we haven't had much cricket over the years. Hopefully that's changed over the next two years and we will see plenty of cricket. I think we have excellent summer coming up next year. Hope NZ Cricket keep massaging BCCI, have plenty of tours. If India sides with NZ Cricket which they seem to be favoring of late the rest of the countries will fall in line as well.

 

[Moss]

I had a chance to speak to Mahela and he said NZ domestic cricket is probably one of the best in the world. The only gripe he had was that runs sometimes are easy to come given the size of some of our grounds. I'd certainly think we are better than county cricket. They have way too many teams in English county and generally the quality of players barring few is not all that great. Our blokes when they make it to county do amazingly well.

I know you have marked some of the players above as not international quality but I do believe the line is very thin between domestic and international cricket for our boys. They surely can stack up. We aren't a bad cricketing nation to be honest. We have held our own for decades. Somehow we have struggled in the batting department in the last 5 years. Perhaps these are very early stages for a lot of players and as pointed out by some we haven't had much cricket over the years. Hopefully that's changed over the next two years and we will see plenty of cricket. I think we have excellent summer coming up next year. Hope NZ Cricket keep massaging BCCI, have plenty of tours. If India sides with NZ Cricket which they seem to be favoring of late the rest of the countries will fall in line as well.

Nice to hear the comments from Mahela. Yeah, I definitely didn't mean to imply that NZ are a bad or inadequate cricketing nation at all. Barring that stretch between 2007-2010 when a number of retirements and the loss of players to the ICL/IPL/County cricket made things difficult, NZ have been very respectable and generally competitive for the last two decades. And as a fan I'm pretty happy with that while recognising that there's scope to do better.

Most of my post was in response to concerns about the batting specifically. Leaving aside my perceptions of whether someone may be international quality or not, I think it's the lack of *consistent* opportunities which has been an issue for some of the guys you mentioned, apart from de Grandhomme none have been given an extended run. Munro for example has been appearing in internationals for 6 years now but only in the last year has he been given a permanent place. And because the test lineup has been pretty much locked down we didn't get the chance to see if he might make it at that level despite an excellent FC record.

 

[Immenso]

After game 1 of the NZ A series.

Comparing the FC records for NZ A v Plunket Shield for the specialist batsmen and keeper/batsmen.



continued ....

 

[Flem274*]

barring ajaz having a mare in the final 2 tests it looks like we're going to be rolling with and 8-11 of southee-wagner-ajaz-boult which will be interesting. that's four #10s, though it won't be truly tested this summer because sri lanka and bangladesh can't beat us in nz. next summer against england-india-oz tho we'll need the top 7 to stand up every game.

henry appears to be next cab off the rank and he's also a #10. tbh if hesson were still coach i'd be half predicting wagner or ajaz getting shelved for the summer in favour of a bowling allrounder.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

barring ajaz having a mare in the final 2 tests it looks like we're going to be rolling with and 8-11 of southee-wagner-ajaz-boult which will be interesting. that's four #10s, though it won't be truly tested this summer because sri lanka and bangladesh can't beat us in nz. next summer against england-india-oz tho we'll need the top 7 to stand up every game.

henry appears to be next cab off the rank and he's also a #10. tbh if hesson were still coach i'd be half predicting wagner or ajaz getting shelved for the summer in favour of a bowling allrounder.

Ajaz has been great, but I still think Santner will get his spot back once he returns ...

 

[TheBrand]

Episode 2 of our podcast is up! Check it out!

https://insidetheboxcricket.podbean.com/e/episode-2-25-nov-18/

 

[Gomez656]

India A 71 for 0
Ferguson 6/0/25/0

Agarwal on 39 with 7 fours
Eshwaran- on 28

Rain

 

[Immenso]

Judging purely on the boundaries in the video scorecard.

Rance's full inswingers being blocked for 4 with a modern bat.

Agarwal scored 5 of his 7 boundaries with streaky runs through gully.