*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

[Bahnz]

Fair enough but the point you are making is about selection and I'm making is about providing proper opportunities. Two different things to be honest. Selecting doesn't mean anything if you don't encourage them. All of the names you have mentioned above have been given a short rope meanwhile near 30 or 30+ year old cricketer even just doing ok is given a long rope. This is where I feel we are wrong. Give them a go at the positions they deserve, why fear so much? If they have what it takes they will do fine otherwise you can always work on them to make them better. What's the point in having a promising young batsman at no.6/no.8 for few years and then figuring out he can't deliver at the top? It's a fact we haven't produced any good young batting talent since the days of Kane Williamson (barring Tom as I mentioned above). There must certainly be a reason. They couldn't have all been rubbish. Finn Allen should be batting at no.4 or even no.3 by Aces. Ravindra should be opening for NZ A (given his selection but I do think it was stupid to select him if they weren't confident of his batting) and not batting at no.8. Josh Finnie should be batting at no.3 or no.4. No point hiding these guys if they are picked on merit. You think Kane Williamson is a once a generation player and I think there are more like him coming. If it's not happening then we need to work out why is that not happening?

Hmmm...do you remember the 00's? Approximately one class bat per U19 cycle is pretty standard ('00 - McCullum 02 - Taylor/Ryder 04 - Watling 06 - Guptill 08 - KW 10 - Latham). Yeah, Will Young hasn't really panned out, but Seifert looks well on his way to graduating up to internationals in the next year or two. And players who come through to the intl side at 20/21 are rare as hen's teeth - even Taylor was pushing 24 when he made his test debut, and Watling didn't nail down a regular spot until his late 20's.

In all seriousness, I think you're reaching here. First class remains a gargantuan step-up from U19 cricket, and it's common for guys to take a year or two to make the grade (especially for batsmen). Despite this, in recent years we've seen plenty of youngsters like Seifert, Chapman, O'Donnell, Horne, McClure and Young get extended runs. CD are also banking on youth this season with Leopard and Ludick getting regular game time. Auckland I imagine, are taking the Australian model to Allen, debuting him down the order with the goal of moving him up soon if he succeeds. I agree that Rachin hanging around with the A-team and occasionally playing as a bowling allrounder won't be particularly helpful for his development. But the absence of a clear development pathway for young Wellingtonians is the only real problem I see here. As much as I hate to give Howsie and Flem the satisfaction, I kinda hope Rachin decides to take up a couple of Uni papers at Waikato or Massey and gets himself some Hawke Cup cricket asap.

 

[Immenso]

Its obvious that Ravindra is going to get the season opening for Wellington in Plunket Shield. In his absence they have elevated an uncontacted club player .

 

[Kippax]

Yeah Fletcher was their final contractee, but I agree.

 

[nzfan]

Hmmm...do you remember the 00's? Approximately one class bat per U19 cycle is pretty standard ('00 - McCullum 02 - Taylor/Ryder 04 - Watling 06 - Guptill 08 - KW 10 - Latham). Yeah, Will Young hasn't really panned out, but Seifert looks well on his way to graduating up to internationals in the next year or two. And players who come through to the intl side at 20/21 are rare as hen's teeth - even Taylor was pushing 24 when he made his test debut, and Watling didn't nail down a regular spot until his late 20's.

In all seriousness, I think you're reaching here. First class remains a gargantuan step-up from U19 cricket, and it's common for guys to take a year or two to make the grade (especially for batsmen). Despite this, in recent years we've seen plenty of youngsters like Seifert, Chapman, O'Donnell, Horne, McClure and Young get extended runs. CD are also banking on youth this season with Leopard and Ludick getting regular game time. Auckland I imagine, are taking the Australian model to Allen, debuting him down the order with the goal of moving him up soon if he succeeds. I agree that Rachin hanging around with the A-team and occasionally playing as a bowling allrounder won't be particularly helpful for his development. But the absence of a clear development pathway for young Wellingtonians is the only real problem I see here. As much as I hate to give Howsie and Flem the satisfaction, I kinda hope Rachin decides to take up a couple of Uni papers at Waikato or Massey and gets himself some Hawke Cup cricket asap.

I think you are correct there. There's definitely good bunch of players and expecting 21-22 year olds from New Zealand to be playing at intl is asking for too much I suppose. It'll happen in sub continent but probably not in our set up given our lack of depth. As you'd have figured out I'm expecting Kane or Ross like player ever 5 years :-) Probably Kane started as no 6 too can't remember it's been a long time.

Wellington is not that bad after all to be honest. Jacob Bhula and Ben are in the 12 for tomorrow's game. I think Ravindra will be all right, he'll get his dues. NZ cricket seem to have a lot of faith in him. Just wish they chuck the young ones at deep end and see how they go.

 

[nzfan]

Corey and Glen Phillips have made the t20 side rightly but no replacement for Guptill in the t20s. I thought Ajaz or Tastle would have made the team. There's only Ish in the t20 side as a spinner. They'll go with 3 pace bowlers in guessing.

 

[vandem]

Corey and Glen Phillips have made the t20 side rightly but no replacement for Guptill in the t20s. I thought Ajaz or Tastle would have made the team. There's only Ish in the t20 side as a spinner. They'll go with 3 pace bowlers in guessing.

Ish and some part time SLA from Chapman. Although selectors may not want to put too much trust in de Grandhomme's bowling, so use him as a specialist bat, which means no spot in the XI for Chapman.

 

[Mike5181]

Something like that? Would be tempting to play Anderson for insurance on the bowling side of things, if he's fit.

1.Colin Munro
2.Glenn Phillips
3.Kane Williamson (capt)
4.Ross Taylor
5.Mark Chapman
6.Tim Seifert
7.Colin de Grandhomme
8.Adam Milne
9.Ish Sodhi
10.Tim Southee
11.Lockie Ferguson

 

[Prince EWS]

Someone who's going to bat seven and be the fifth bowler really should be a much better bowler than de Grandhomme is in T20 cricket IMO. He's improved his white ball bowling a bit the last year or so, but in T20 cricket either domestically or internationally he's really never done anything other than get smashed and not take wickets. Even Munro's cutters are probably a better option at this point.

 

[Flem274*]

i actually think in the past we've ignored experience in favour of youth for youths sake far too often. only desperate teams elevate kids regardless of domestic results.

neil wagner, grant elliott, bj watling, colin de grandhomme, iain o'brien and jeet raval were all relatively old when they debuted or at least cemented their spots, and someone like o'briend should have played a lot more.

i hate rubbish like putting batting allrounders at #8 or that season where jeet raval lived at #7 as much as anyone. that's just a ridiculous use of resources. i don't think that's happening to these guys though, rachin on this A tour excepted. allen, leopard and seifert have all been given sensible positions for their roles by their provinces. CD recognised early will young is a good leaver of a ball with a solid technique to put him to #3. pity he always scores 40-60.

rachin, allen and seifert will be test cricketers soon enough. i still think seifert is the best young batsman in the country atm and should be groomed for #4, forget the gloves.

 

[Mike5181]

Someone who's going to bat seven and be the fifth bowler really should be a much better bowler than de Grandhomme is in T20 cricket IMO. He's improved his white ball bowling a bit the last year or so, but in T20 cricket either domestically or internationally he's really never done anything other than get smashed and not take wickets. Even Munro's cutters are probably a better option at this point.

He's been smashed about half the time in his t20i career (5/12 times). He could be better but I don't think it's entirely fair to say all he's ever done is get smashed.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

Its obvious that Ravindra is going to get the season opening for Wellington in Plunket Shield. In his absence they have elevated an uncontacted club player .

I’m sure I read Edgar saying at the end of last season that Ravindra was a spin bowler who would in time move up the batting order ... which scared me a bit ... but going on the above he should get a spot opening when he returns.

He might not have got as much game time as he could have, but that NZ A tour is going to be pretty priceless experience when he does make the Blackcaps and goes on a tour. Plus he’ll be facing good bowlers in the nets, more consistent than he would training or playing with Wellington at this stage of the season. So I don’t think it’s a total disaster for him, I never expected him to play much tbh.

 

[NZTailender]

When you look at other teams around the world, which ones bring through youths more regularly than we do? I'd say we're on par with the Saffers, Oz and England. The subcontinent teams are probably the only ones who do it quite regularly, often with mixed results. WI does due to a bare cupboard. I don't think we're missing a trick. We just need a better A team system (the world does).

 

[straw man]

Something like that? Would be tempting to play Anderson for insurance on the bowling side of things, if he's fit.

1.Colin Munro
2.Glenn Phillips
3.Kane Williamson (capt)
4.Ross Taylor
5.Mark Chapman
6.Tim Seifert
7.Colin de Grandhomme
8.Adam Milne
9.Ish Sodhi
10.Tim Southee
11.Lockie Ferguson

Looks decent. Wonder which of Phillips or Seifert will keep wicket.

 

[Zinzan]

Someone who's going to bat seven and be the fifth bowler really should be a much better bowler than de Grandhomme is in T20 cricket IMO. He's improved his white ball bowling a bit the last year or so, but in T20 cricket either domestically or internationally he's really never done anything other than get smashed and not take wickets. Even Munro's cutters are probably a better option at this point.

Yeah, can't rely on de Grand for even close to his full quota of overs.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

NZ A all out for 224. Disappoiinting for a side with Van Beek at 11

 

[nzfan]

No Lockie either today. This game could be over in no time although I expect our boys to scrap hard.

What's up with the top order? They struggled to score 30s let alone 100s. Must be a slow deck or something.

Phillips sure has done well in the t20s but has collected 4 ducks out of 6 hits. Worker barely has scored some runs. Anderson also struggling for runs. Will Young has done his best but stranded in the 40s. Bowlers have done a good job on the tour every time. Let's hope they can pull it off.

 

[Athlai]

NZ A all out for 224. Disappoiinting for a side with Van Beek at 11

Yeah that’s a bloody deep batting lineup

 

[Prince EWS]

NZ A all out for 224. Disappoiinting for a side with Van Beek at 11

No Lockie either today.

You'd assume not given the above post.

 

[nzfan]

Although Pakistan got there in the 49th over doesn't sound like the game was close enough. No wickets yet for Ravindra vs Pakistan and going for run a ball and batting at no.8, must be testing him. Again the batters have failed to deliver. Tastle going strength to strength and good outing for BJ.

 

[straw man]

Annoying that our second and third highest scorers (Young and Tastle) were run out - haven't seen the wickets and may or may not have been their fault, but that sank a chance to see what they could do given a start.

Bowling figures still good though must have been a tricky pitch - assume it was slow.