Was Sehwag the greatest player of spin in the hisory of the game ??

[cnerd123]

And Murali relied more on beneficial pitch conditions, whereas Warne was just as effective in almost all conditions.

Eh, I wouldn't phrase it that way. I think Murali exploited beneficial conditions better than Warne did, but that's not a demerit and shouldn't be held against him.

It's just that when your bowling is built around playing a batsman's mind as much his technique, like Warne, then you have more tools to call upon when the pitch is flat.

This is why Warne struggled with India - he got very helpful conditions to bowl in, but couldn't get into the heads of the Indian batsmen, and so found himself lacking. Once he lost the mental battle he didn't have the depth of skill to test them technically - see Sachin, VVS and Dravid repeatedly driving balls outside legstump to cover. Murali was better against Indian batsmen in the same conditions because his bowling was more about constantly testing a batsmen's skill and technique. He didn't play many mind games. So when he went to Australia and found the pitches unsuited to his bowling, he didn't have a bag of tricks like Warne to call upon.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Eh, I wouldn't phrase it that way

Perhaps "relied" was the wrong word. Took advantage of them better maybe, whereas Warne was more effective when there wasn't as much natural help for the spinners.

 

[stephen]

Eh, I wouldn't phrase it that way. I think Murali exploited beneficial conditions better than Warne did, but that's not a demerit and shouldn't be held against him.

It's just that when your bowling is built around playing a batsman's mind as much his technique, like Warne, then you have more tools to call upon when the pitch is flat.

This is why Warne struggled with India - he got very helpful conditions to bowl in, but couldn't get into the heads of the Indian batsmen, and so found himself lacking. Once he lost the mental battle he didn't have the depth of skill to test them technically - see Sachin, VVS and Dravid repeatedly driving balls outside legstump to cover. Murali was better against Indian batsmen in the same conditions because his bowling was more about constantly testing a batsmen's skill and technique. He didn't play many mind games. So when he went to Australia and found the pitches unsuited to his bowling, he didn't have a bag of tricks like Warne to call upon.

Warne vs India has been done to death. Suffice to say injury played a bigger part of those failings as anything else. Though Tendulkar did manage to get into Warne's head. I largely think Warne couldn't be bothered facing India in the next home summer, which is why he retired when he did.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Warne vs India has been done to death. Suffice to say injury played a bigger part of those failings as anything else. Though Tendulkar did manage to get into Warne's head. I largely think Warne couldn't be bothered facing India in the next home summer, which is why he retired when he did.

That is ludicrous. The reality is that Warne didn't even bowl badly against India. There was just no other batting lineup that could own quality spin like that one could.

 

[cnerd123]

Yea Warne bowled well enough against India, it's just the batsmen were up to the task.

Warne's got this reputation of being a bowler of magic deliveries, but at his core he's a very straightforward loopy legspinner, who gets most of his wickets through immaculate set-ups and execution. I'd wager Murali actually gets a higher % of his wickets through unplayable deliveries. Against India both struggled to build pressure, and that hurt Warne to a larger extent than it hurt Murali.

 

[ankitj]

Warne vs India has been done to death. Suffice to say injury played a bigger part of those failings as anything else. Though Tendulkar did manage to get into Warne's head. I largely think Warne couldn't be bothered facing India in the next home summer, which is why he retired when he did.

No one buys it other than you and few blue eyed fanboys. Murali has troubled Indian batsmen more in all formats and in all conditions (still much less than he troubled others but more than Warne demonstrably). It's not up for debate even.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Does anyone in this generation belong up in that conversation with the very best? Smith or Pujara maybe? But I can't think of anyone else.

 

[cnerd123]

It's a hard thing to evaluate. Lots of subjective elements, and you really need to know what you're looking for since there are many different aspects to playing spin bowling.

I think Smith plays spin better than Pujara. Pujara is better at using his feet to come down the wicket, but I think Smith is better when defending from his crease. Smith is also really good at using the depth of the crease to go back and play spin off the backfoot. I think this allows him to create more scoring opportunities and disrupt the spinner's rhythm more.

ABDV is a pretty exceptional player of spin. Another one of those players who gets overlooked because he is just so good at everything. He looked a whole different class above everyone else when SA toured India.

 

[ankitj]

tbh I think Warne is more of an 'uphill skier', in that his method of bowling relied quite a bit on being able to put the batsmen under pressure. The pressure on a batsman in club/domestic cricket, or in a massive mismatch, is not the same as the pressure on a batsman in a big series with a lot a stake. Warne's ability to set traps and deceive batsmen really shone in those circumstances. In comparison, Murali's bowling was built around just bowling a lot of very good to unplayable deliveries and constantly testing a batsman's technique, he'd thrive at any level of cricket, no matter what was on the line.

Eh, I wouldn't phrase it that way. I think Murali exploited beneficial conditions better than Warne did, but that's not a demerit and shouldn't be held against him.

It's just that when your bowling is built around playing a batsman's mind as much his technique, like Warne, then you have more tools to call upon when the pitch is flat.

This is why Warne struggled with India - he got very helpful conditions to bowl in, but couldn't get into the heads of the Indian batsmen, and so found himself lacking. Once he lost the mental battle he didn't have the depth of skill to test them technically - see Sachin, VVS and Dravid repeatedly driving balls outside legstump to cover. Murali was better against Indian batsmen in the same conditions because his bowling was more about constantly testing a batsmen's skill and technique. He didn't play many mind games. So when he went to Australia and found the pitches unsuited to his bowling, he didn't have a bag of tricks like Warne to call upon.

Yea Warne bowled well enough against India, it's just the batsmen were up to the task.

Warne's got this reputation of being a bowler of magic deliveries, but at his core he's a very straightforward loopy legspinner, who gets most of his wickets through immaculate set-ups and execution. I'd wager Murali actually gets a higher % of his wickets through unplayable deliveries. Against India both struggled to build pressure, and that hurt Warne to a larger extent than it hurt Murali.

Good contribution from this ****.

 

[greg]

Does anyone in this generation belong up in that conversation with the very best? Smith or Pujara maybe? But I can't think of anyone else.

Cook averaged 53 against spin.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Cook averaged 53 against spin.

Cook's hardly part of this generation is he? I'm talking abut the post 2010 crowd since there're so many crap players of spin like de Kock, Rahane, Faf etc.

 

[greg]

Cook's hardly part of this generation is he? I'm talking abut the post 2010 crowd since there're so many crap players of spin like de Kock, Rahane, Faf etc.

Well ok, pretty short generation though. He’s even younger than Faf.

 

[a massive zebra]

I may wander a bit in reply. Most of my posts here are teasing. Its not that I don't rate a certain poster just the coordinates of that poster and the topic of Murali, for whom he has a seemingly irrational though understandable love. We all have favourites.

Could you be more specific? Are you talking about me here?

 

[the big bambino]

Could you be more specific? Are you talking about me here?

No, not you. Migara.

 

[morgieb]

Does anyone in this generation belong up in that conversation with the very best? Smith or Pujara maybe? But I can't think of anyone else.

Most of the Big 4 are good players of spin. Pujara an obvious one, and there are some quality ones of the older generation (AB, Amla, Cook)

Thing is I think the majority of batsman today aren't even good against spin, let alone great.

Even with Smith though, he's struggled a bit against attacks with a great left-armer (Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, South Africa). Lethal against right-arm spin though.

 

[a massive zebra]

No, not you. Migara.

I see. Migara is a Sri Lankan cricket fan. It would be perfectly understandable for him to worship the greatest cricketer ever from his country. And no dig at you personally, but it's not like many of the Australians on this board come across as the most impartial members of the forum either.

 

[Coronis]

I see. Migara is a Sri Lankan cricket fan. It would be perfectly understandable for him to worship the greatest cricketer ever from his country. And no dig at you personally, but it's not like many of the Australians on this board come across as the most impartial members of the forum either.

I thought that was Sanga tbh.

 

[a massive zebra]

I thought that was Sanga tbh.

Perhaps we could make a thread about this rather than going off on a tangent about a topic that is irrelevant to the subject of this thread. My take on it is there haven't been any bowlers in history that are a clear level above Murali (even if some might prefer the likes of Barnes, O'Reilly, Trueman, Marshall, Hadlee, Ambrose, Warne, McGrath or Steyn), but there have been several batsmen who are universally recognised as superior to Sangakkara (Hobbs, Sobers, V Richards, Tendulkar, Lara plus possibly Hammond, Headley, Pollock, Gavaskar, Ponting etc). So Murali wins for me.

 

[a massive zebra]

BTW I didn't forget Bradman but it's not a fair comparison as there hasn't been a bowling equivalent.

 

[Coronis]

Good thing it wasn’t a sarcastic post.