CW decides the greatest test spinner ever. 43 names: Countdown/Rankings thread

[cnerd123]

We never saw MacGill go through a bad patch at international level. If he were a lead spinner for his whole career, his inconsistency could have lead to some really bad series and probably and overall lower estimation of his skills.

 

[TheJediBrah]

We never saw MacGill go through a bad patch at international level. If he were a lead spinner for his whole career, his inconsistency could have lead to some really bad series and probably and overall lower estimation of his skills.

There's no decent logic behind this. It would make much more sense to say the opposite, ie. if he had the chance to establish himself with consistency in the side etc. he would have had much better returns

 

[jimmy101]

Fergie, WAG.

 

[cnerd123]

There's no decent logic behind this. It would make much more sense to say the opposite, ie. if he had the chance to establish himself with consistency in the side etc. he would have had much better returns

If this is true then you're arguing he is better than Warne

 

[srbhkshk]

McGill in tests with Warne - average 22.1
McGill in tests wthout Warne - average 33.5

Saying that he would have a minimum 600 and possibly more wickets basically implies that he was as good as Warne - I don't think that's correct.

 

[TheJediBrah]

If this is true then you're arguing he is better than Warne

I'm not arguing anything, just pointing out the pure absurdity of your suggestions.

Ftr I don't think he's better than Warne, but he was pretty close

 

[vcs]

He was nowhere near as good as Warne (not many leggies are). Warne's accuracy and control was just freakish for a legspinner.

 

[cnerd123]

I'm not arguing anything, just pointing out the pure absurdity of your suggestions.

Ftr I don't think he's better than Warne, but he was pretty close

It's not absurd tho. He was never picked for Australia despite being in poor form due to a lack of alternatives. Basically every other spinner in this list had to play Tests when they weren't bowling their best at one point or another because that comes with being the No. 1 spinner for their country. This hurts their overall numbers and our perceptions of them. MacGill escapes all this scrutiny. He also never had to bear the workload that comes with be a starting XI spinner - all the travel, media and other obligations that come with it.

MacGill only had 2 tours where he got to be lead spinner - in Pakistan in 1998, where he took 15 wickets in 3 Tests @ 27, and in West Indies a couple of times, where he racked up 7 Tests and took 30 wickets @ 37.83. Every other spinner on this list had several tours overseas in varying conditions as lead spinner - MacGill only visited two countries and sucked in one of them.

Overall MacGill's record in games where he had to bear sole responsibility as the spinner is pretty mediocre - 126 wickets @ 33.53. The only countries he averages under 30 against while the lead spinner is Pakistan - see above - and Bangladesh - who he rekt when they toured in 2003 with 17 wickets in 2 games.

It's perfectly valid to hold all this against him. It's why I didn't vote for him. The fact that he averages under 30 at all is because he had Warne to hide behind, and if not for him I believe he would be spoken of in the same breath as Danish Kaneria and Ravi Jadeja.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It's not absurd tho. He was never picked for Australia despite being in poor form due to a lack of alternatives. Basically every other spinner in this list had to play Tests when they weren't bowling their best at one point or another because that comes with being the No. 1 spinner for their country. This hurts their overall numbers and our perceptions of them. MacGill escapes all this scrutiny. He also never had to bear the workload that comes with be a starting XI spinner - all the travel, media and other obligations that come with it.

This is all laughable. It's a ridiculous assumption that MacGill only ever happened to play when he was in good form. There's no reason to think that, or to think that his Test career had any less variation in his form than others.

MacGill only had 2 tours where he got to be lead spinner - in Pakistan in 1998, where he took 15 wickets in 3 Tests @ 27, and in West Indies a couple of times, where he racked up 7 Tests and took 30 wickets @ 37.83. Every other spinner on this list had unforgiving tours overseas in unfavourable conditions as lead spinner - MacGill only visited two countries and sucked in one of them.

This again doesn't help whatever point you're trying to make, if anything points out the opposite. If he was a regular spinner he'd have had vastly more experience in foreign conditions and touring in general, and it's reasonable to expect his cricket would improve as a result.

Overall MacGill's record in games where he had to bear sole responsibility as the spinner is pretty mediocre - 126 wickets @ 33.53. The only countries he averages under 30 against as the sole spinner is Pakistan - see above - and Bangladesh - who he rekt when they toured in 2003 with 17 wickets in 2 games.

Perfect examples of picking and choosing of stats to suit your argument rather than any that hold actual merit. Those 126 wickets at 33.53 are selected from his games where he presumably played in less spin-friendly conditions, and are not even really mediocre. Just lol @ picking them as if they prove anything. There's an Indian spinner or 2 on this list with similar career averages.

This post should be a poster-child for cherry-picking stats to suit your argument.

It's perfectly valid to hold all this against him. It's why I didn't vote for him. The fact that he averages under 30 at all is because he had Warne to hide behind, and if not for him I believe he would be spoken of in the same breath as Danish Kaneria and Ravi Jadeja.

Hard to compare him with such a vastly different bowler like Jadeja but I wouldn't scoff at speaking of them on a similar level at all.

 

[cnerd123]

If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. I don't care if MacGill 'could' have done better if he was always lead spinner - the fact is he was mediocre when he got the chance to be one, and his career record as the frontline spinner isn't worthy of this list.

The highest average of any Indian spinner on this list is Prasanna - he averaged 30.38 with a far better economy rate.

Taking a bag of wickets when you've got Warne doing all the hard work at the other end, in conditions that justify selecting two spinners, is not impressive. It's just not.

 

[Starfighter]

The highest average of any Indian spinner on this list is Prasanna - he averaged 30.38 with a far better economy rate.

Look who's forgotten about Harbhajan.

 

[cnerd123]

Harbhajan made the list?

FMD. Okay MacGill's better than Bhajji I'll give him that.

 

[Starfighter]

I'd venture to the opinion of MacGill being better than Qadir. Way better actually.

 

[Zinzan]

I'd venture to the opinion of MacGill being better than Qadir. Way better actually.

Only because Qadir gets criminally overrated simply due to his beautiful & mesmerising action, & ability to bowl the odd absolute Jaffa.

Ignoring the delightful action, his overall career was decidedly ordinary. A Test average pushing 33, made even worse when one considers that 48 of his 67 Tests were played in Asia.

 

[Hicheal Michael]

MacGill doesn't sound like he was ever 'one of the boys' - would he have played 100 tests?

 

[mr_mister]

#14th. Bhagwath Chandrasekhar, 197 points

Featured on 26 of 35 lists
Highest finish: 6th (2 times)
Ranking within spin discipline: 6th of 16 (Leg Break Googly)
Test WPM ranking: 21st of 43 (4.17)


Chandra took over the leg-spinning role for India in the wake of Gupte's retirement and forged a terrific career as well. He only edged out Gupte by 3 points in this exercise and had quite similar stats. Nearly identical averages and WPM with a slighty worse economy rate and slighty higher strike rate. Chandra's WPM is the best out of the whole quartet and he was said to be the most likely out of the four to 'deliver an unplayable ball'. He had the best overseas record out of them as well.

Chandra was attacked by a bout of polio as a child which withered his right arm, his bowling arm. Yet he fought through this setback to play 58 tests and take 242 wickets for his country. As i've wrote about with Prasanna the quartet was responsible for many first triumphs for India against various countries. Chandra was instrumental in these triumphs. If Imran, Wasim and Waqar inspired a generation of young pakistani quicks, the quartet did the same for India and spinners.

Chandra performed best against top opposition in England and Australia, averaging 28 and 27 against them. He averaged a very respectable 30 down under in what is usually a graveyard for touring spinners. Only in a few patches of his career did he stumble, mainly later in his career. He only played one series against Pakistan, in 1978 and unfortunately averaged 48 during it. His final 2 tests in 1979 against the Windies and England resulted in 230 runs for 1 wicket.

 

[cnerd123]

This is a great piece on Abdul Qadir:

Christian Ryan: Abdul Qadir's Australian summer | Cricket News | Cricinfo at 20 years | ESPNcricinfo

 

[jimmy101]

MacGill doesn't sound like he was ever 'one of the boys' - would he have played 100 tests?

You might be on to something here.

 

[Starfighter]

Only because Qadir gets criminally overrated simply due to his beautiful & mesmerising action, & ability to bowl the odd absolute Jaffa.

Ignoring the delightful action, his overall career was decidedly ordinary. A Test average pushing 33, made even worse when one considers that 48 of his 67 Tests were played in Asia.

Hey, I'm the one who's made multiple Qasim > Qadir posts. You can't go wrong with his action though, hell of a lot of fun to imitate.

 

[TheJediBrah]

MacGill doesn't sound like he was ever 'one of the boys' - would he have played 100 tests?

Easily IMO. There wasn't anyone else near as good. Miller might have been competition briefly but he was done in the early 00s anyway.

Brad Hogg might have a bit later, but who knows if there was no Warne then MacGill might have been Australia's ODI spinner right from the late 90s onwards and Hogg may never have gotten a chance in the spotlight at all