Ranking the candidates for best fast/pace bowler ever: The Rankings thread

[TheJediBrah]

Ashwin excelled in Asia and flopped outside. Lillee was fantastic in Aus/Eng and has a pathetic record elsewhere. Ashwin is ridiculed as a home track bully while Lillee is hailed as a great.

We've been over this. Lillee hardly played elsewhere. It's not an accurate comparison.

Anyway Ashwin is definitely winning people over

 

[Logan]

There are two ways of looking at it. One is Lillee didn’t play enough Tests outside Aus/Eng. Another is he preferred not to play outside countries which suited his style of bowling. No one knows the truth.

 

[OverratedSanity]

We've been over this. Lillee hardly played elsewhere.

At best that means he's unproven in alien conditions.

 

[MagicPoopShovel]

I'm not a huge fan of Ashwin but he has only really played a handful of series away from home
6 in Aus
1 in BD
4 in Eng
3 in SA
6 in SL
4 in WI

Maybe once he doubles or triples that tally we will have a clearer picture of how good or useless he is away from home.

As a comparison as TJB says Lillee has played
5 in NZ
3 in Pak
1 in WI
1 in SL

10 total Tests outside of Aus or Eng ( played 70 in total)..so we will never really know how he would have fared in those conditions.

 

[TheJediBrah]

There are two ways of looking at it. One is Lillee didn’t play enough Tests outside Aus/Eng. Another is he preferred not to play outside countries which suited his style of bowling. No one knows the truth.

It's a bit of both. Touring the subcontinent back in the '70s wasn't exactly fun, and not for cricketing reasons. If he chose not to tour there, it wasn't because it "doesn't suit his style of bowling".

At best that means he's unproven in alien conditions.

well, yes

 

[quincywagstaff]

It's an interesting point, and finding someone who fits that bill is awkward. Hadlee wasn't yet the God he became, Roberts was average here in 75-76 save for Perth and Holding was a pup on the same tour. Imran took 18 wickets on the 76-77 tour at 28 - not bad numbers but nothing like he produced later when he was at his best as a bowler and not what you'd call amazing. Willis was a solid contributor through the decade, though you would have to mark him down on his stats in 78-79 because that Australian side aside from Hughes, Hogg and of course TOTAB was barely FC let alone test standard.

Lillee broke down in the WI in 73 and I don't believe Australia toured there again until the late 70s when he was with WSC and not available. I believe they then didn't tour again until 84 when he had retired. Likewise, I don't think there was a tour of India in Lillee's time for which he was available, which is a shame, because he could basically get Gavaskar out with a tomato. His record in Pakistan is awful, small sample size nws. I think he played a test in SL and didn't go too well, though tbf to him that was after he'd suffered his knee injury which kept him out of virtually the whole 82-83 Ashes. He'd already started being picked as first change in the ODI side by then, and he wasn't taking the wickets he used to at test level either. I remember his last series, there was talk of dropping him after two tests because he'd only taken one wicket, but either Rackemann or Lawson got injured and he was able to play the whole series.

It's odd he didn't bowl well in Pakistan. He took a lot of wickets on flat tracks like Melbourne, Adelaide and Sydney here.

It's a hole in his record largely not of his own making. One of the good things about modern tour scheduling is at least players get tested everywhere, even though they mostly don't pass the test.

This is largely accurate, but it should be noted that Australia toured Pakistan in 1982 and Lillee consciously chose not to tour there, largely because of his lack of success on the 1980 tour.

I’ve read Lillee’s writings about his 1980 Pakistan tour and he was clearly mentally beaten by the conditions and his total lack of success in the first two Tests; so much so that he and Greg Chappell orchestrated a scheme before the third Test where they pretended that he’d broken down with an injury so Pakistan would use a more pace-friendly pitch (it didn’t work).

Lillee wasn’t alone in his criticisms of the lack of assistance that the Pakistan pitches provided to pacemen on that tour, but to skip the next tour there because of that was pretty ordinary imo and should be factored into his overall reputation.

 

[TheJediBrah]

This is largely accurate, but it should be noted that Australia toured Pakistan in 1982 and Lillee consciously chose not to tour there, largely because of his lack of success on the 1980 tour.

I’ve read Lillee’s writings about his 1980 Pakistan tour and he was clearly mentally beaten by the conditions and his total lack of success in the first two Tests; so much so that he and Greg Chappell orchestrated a scheme before the third Test where they pretended that he’d broken down with an injury so Pakistan would use a more pace-friendly pitch (it didn’t work).

Lillee wasn’t alone in his criticisms of the lack of assistance that the Pakistan pitches provided to pacemen on that tour, but to skip the next tour there because of that was pretty ordinary imo and should be factored into his overall reputation.

Heh maybe it was somewhat because it didn't suit his style of bowling . . .

 

[morgieb]

There are two ways of looking at it. One is Lillee didn’t play enough Tests outside Aus/Eng. Another is he preferred not to play outside countries which suited his style of bowling. No one knows the truth.

Nah, I don't think Lillee skipped any tours (apart from the 77 Ashes) because he didn't feel like it. Most of the time it was because of WSC or injuries.

For the WI thing, he toured WI as part of the WSC tours in 78/79. Took 23 wickets @ 28.39. Not that amazing, but it appears that the wickets were fairly flat and it was also a strong batting lineup he was going against.

EDIT: See Wagstaff posted above me, looks like 82 was because he wasn't willing to tour Pakistan. Play on.

 

[morgieb]

He's talking about contemporary opinion by people who watched him bowl. Eye test =/= aesthetics imo. There's more to it than merely that.

Exactly. Though tbf both are probably at least somewhat interlocked.

Reason I was crapping on about that was because I don't think many if any of us saw him bowl live.

 

[Adders]

I have to disagree vehemently here. D K Lillee is in my top 3 if not Numero Uno. Good job on this MM. Only sorry I was not here to add my list.

Bugger missing out on this. Just for the record this is my Top10.

Lillee
McGrath

Well I'll be a son of gun.....so says BaggyGreenMania lol

 

[Burgey]

Ashwin excelled in Asia and flopped outside. Lillee was fantastic in Aus/Eng and has a pathetic record elsewhere. Ashwin is ridiculed as a home track bully while Lillee is hailed as a great.

The fastest to 300 wickets in terms of balls is not Ashwin or Lillee. It is Dale Steyn.

Steyn took 400 wickets in an astonishing 3600 balls less than previous record holder Richard Hadlee.

Well Lillee played all of about 4 tests on the SC and broke down with stress fractures on his tour to the WI. Ashwon’t has had multiple tours to multiple places. There’s a significant difference in comparing the two sets of performances.

 

[Burgey]

Well I'll be a son of gun.....so says BaggyGreenMania lol

Tbf Alec Stewart rates Anderson number one....

Good spot Quincy on the 82 tour. Wasn’t aware of that.

 

[Burgey]

Exactly. Though tbf both are probably at least somewhat interlocked.

Reason I was crapping on about that was because I don't think many if any of us saw him bowl live.

I did. He was mesmerising. More than any other bowler I’ve seen.

His effect on a crowd was like Warne’s squared. Lillee bowling to Richards was the greatest clash of cricketing swagger ever. Neither of them would back down and both believed they had everyone’s measure. It was an insane clash of egos and genius. That 91/82 series out here was so good. WI did well to eventually draw it after the Hughes and Lillee show in Melbourne.

I’d wager that wsc wouldn’t have got off the ground without Lillee. He was the biggest star in cricket here at that time. Some great memories of watching him bowl. Awesome theatre.

 

[MagicPoopShovel]

That's quite interesting re: 82 tour and DKL. Had no idea. Are there other known instances of him skipping tours similarly?

 

[Zinzan]

I did. He was mesmerising. More than any other bowler I’ve seen.

His effect on a crowd was like Warne’s squared. Lillee bowling to Richards was the greatest clash of cricketing swagger ever. Neither of them would back down and both believed they had everyone’s measure. It was an insane clash of egos and genius. That 91/82 series out here was so good. WI did well to eventually draw it after the Hughes and Lillee show in Melbourne.

I’d wager that wsc wouldn’t have got off the ground without Lillee. He was the biggest star in cricket here at that time. Some great memories of watching him bowl. Awesome theatre.

He seems to agree

 

[Zinzan]

Haha, trying to nip at the heels of his hero.

 

[trundler]

Every great sportsman needs a myth, a story and Lillee had a badass and grand one.

 

[quincywagstaff]

From Jack Pollard history of Test Cricket written in the early 1990s

 

[jimmy101]

From Jack Pollard history of Test Cricket written in the early 1990sView attachment 24206

Yeah, very few of the senior players supported Hughes at all during his early captaincy years.

 

[trundler]

Isn't that when Chappell was going through clinical depression or was he just a *****? (Don't mean to inflate the 2).