_00_deathscar
International Regular
While I like the idea, isn't it kind of penalising someone if their peak didn't fall within that very arbitrary period (i.e. peak was 80-85 rather than 78-83 or 83-88)?
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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
The point of the team selection is to construct the strongest team around the given periods, not pick the players with the best peaks (which is what I'm looking at)
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
My goal has been trying to create the best team filled with players who peaked during each five year period. That meant that even though Amiss was the clear cut run scoring leader between 73 and 78, I've left him out of both teams since he wasn't overall as good as Richards, who didn't peak quite so hard during that time but was much better overall. Warne 93-98 was 110 wickets clear of his nearest rival and was therefore an automatic pick from 93-98. Barrington probably wouldn't rate too highly on most people's radars, but he had a monsterous peak during the 63-68 period and so similarly to Warne he had to be picked. Gilchrist's best period was 98-03 and he is the first name on the AT team sheet after Bradman so this spot was a lock in the first team.
The 80s and 90s produced a huge number of great all rounders and fast bowlers respectively. The 60s-70s were much slimmer pickings by comparison. The modern era has been by far the worst to pick from though. Other than Steyn 08-13 and Smith 13-18 there have been no standout bowlers or batsmen. Only really Kohli, Williamson, Anderson and perhaps Ashwin would be in the running for a spot in their national ATG team. But both Anderson and Ashwin are very much home condition bullies, so that makes me less likely to pick them.
That makes Murali an automatic pick.
I brought in Sobers from 68-73. He wasn't at his absolute peak but he was still near the top of the charts for both runs and in the mix for wickets.
13-18 was a coin flip between Kohli and Williamson for both total runs and average. I ended up going with Kohli because he had 3 more hundreds (Williamson had a lot more 50s). I considered Warner, but Simpson was available and a great choice from 63-68 and we'd already discussed Gooch. Warner wasn't as good as either of them during their five year peaks.
I made Kohli bat number 3 because Tendulkar gets seniority. Sobers would be the fifth bowler and Botham basically plays as a specialist bowler.
The 73-78 period was a bit awkward. Lillee and Thompson were the only fast bowlers to average under 25 and take more than 100 wickets during this period. I went with Lillee as he was the better of the two long term. Paddles was the obvious bowling pick from 83-88. I could have gone with him over Marshall in the first team but their stats were similar and most people rate Marshall more highly overall.
The absolute worst period to pick from was 08-13. There were no standout batters and Steyn was the only bowler worth picking. By default this meant that I picked the wicket keeper from this period. The choice was between Prior and Dhoni. I went with Dhoni because he was better with the gloves than Prior and would make a good vice-captain to Steve Waugh.
Gooch 88-93
Simpson 63-68
Kohli 13-18
Tendulkar 98-03
Waugh (c) 93-98
Sobers 68-73
Botham 78-83
Dhoni (wk) 08-13
Hadlee 83-88
Lillee 73-78
Murali 03-08
This one was a bit tougher than the first. Finding Gavaskar's partner was the hardest thing to do in the first team. This time opening spots were far more easily filled up. The bowlers are better batsmen in this side, with Botham and Hadlee being genuine all rounders. This makes up for the difference between Gilchrist and Dhoni somewhat.
Thoughts? Adjustments? Have I missed something obvious?
The 80s and 90s produced a huge number of great all rounders and fast bowlers respectively. The 60s-70s were much slimmer pickings by comparison. The modern era has been by far the worst to pick from though. Other than Steyn 08-13 and Smith 13-18 there have been no standout bowlers or batsmen. Only really Kohli, Williamson, Anderson and perhaps Ashwin would be in the running for a spot in their national ATG team. But both Anderson and Ashwin are very much home condition bullies, so that makes me less likely to pick them.
Instead of trying to shuffle the decks with the first team, let's keep the updated team and craft a new team to face them.
That makes Murali an automatic pick.
I brought in Sobers from 68-73. He wasn't at his absolute peak but he was still near the top of the charts for both runs and in the mix for wickets.
13-18 was a coin flip between Kohli and Williamson for both total runs and average. I ended up going with Kohli because he had 3 more hundreds (Williamson had a lot more 50s). I considered Warner, but Simpson was available and a great choice from 63-68 and we'd already discussed Gooch. Warner wasn't as good as either of them during their five year peaks.
I made Kohli bat number 3 because Tendulkar gets seniority. Sobers would be the fifth bowler and Botham basically plays as a specialist bowler.
The 73-78 period was a bit awkward. Lillee and Thompson were the only fast bowlers to average under 25 and take more than 100 wickets during this period. I went with Lillee as he was the better of the two long term. Paddles was the obvious bowling pick from 83-88. I could have gone with him over Marshall in the first team but their stats were similar and most people rate Marshall more highly overall.
The absolute worst period to pick from was 08-13. There were no standout batters and Steyn was the only bowler worth picking. By default this meant that I picked the wicket keeper from this period. The choice was between Prior and Dhoni. I went with Dhoni because he was better with the gloves than Prior and would make a good vice-captain to Steve Waugh.
Gooch 88-93
Simpson 63-68
Kohli 13-18
Tendulkar 98-03
Waugh (c) 93-98
Sobers 68-73
Botham 78-83
Dhoni (wk) 08-13
Hadlee 83-88
Lillee 73-78
Murali 03-08
This one was a bit tougher than the first. Finding Gavaskar's partner was the hardest thing to do in the first team. This time opening spots were far more easily filled up. The bowlers are better batsmen in this side, with Botham and Hadlee being genuine all rounders. This makes up for the difference between Gilchrist and Dhoni somewhat.
Thoughts? Adjustments? Have I missed something obvious?
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Boycott 68-73
Gavaskar 78-83
Richards 73-78
Smith 13-18
Barrington 63-68
Kallis 03-08
Gilchrist 98-03
Warne 93-98
Marshall 83-88
Steyn 08-13
Ambrose 88-93
vs
Gooch 88-93
Simpson 63-68
Kohli 13-18
Tendulkar 98-03
Waugh (c) 93-98
Sobers 68-73
Botham 78-83
Dhoni (wk) 08-13
Hadlee 83-88
Lillee 73-78
Murali 03-08
Two very strong teams IMO. In theory the first should win but there's not a huge amount between them.
Gavaskar 78-83
Richards 73-78
Smith 13-18
Barrington 63-68
Kallis 03-08
Gilchrist 98-03
Warne 93-98
Marshall 83-88
Steyn 08-13
Ambrose 88-93
vs
Gooch 88-93
Simpson 63-68
Kohli 13-18
Tendulkar 98-03
Waugh (c) 93-98
Sobers 68-73
Botham 78-83
Dhoni (wk) 08-13
Hadlee 83-88
Lillee 73-78
Murali 03-08
Two very strong teams IMO. In theory the first should win but there's not a huge amount between them.
Your team makes more sense this way. I'd expect this method to result in a horrendous omission from the 1st team, as a consequence of 2 players having peaked at the same time, but it looks fine. Boycott is the weakest link, but he's at least close to the 2nd best opener of the era anyway.
The second team has some more questions. Weak openers. Sobers shouldn't qualify at all under your method by virtue of not peaking at the right time. Dhoni was poor in tests and should get nowhere near. I'll switch from arguing for Botham in the 1st under my method to arguing against him getting a spot in the second under yours. Not too sure where this would leave the team- would likely have to switch a bunch of players to accommodate.
The second team has some more questions. Weak openers. Sobers shouldn't qualify at all under your method by virtue of not peaking at the right time. Dhoni was poor in tests and should get nowhere near. I'll switch from arguing for Botham in the 1st under my method to arguing against him getting a spot in the second under yours. Not too sure where this would leave the team- would likely have to switch a bunch of players to accommodate.
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Interesting team with a few left-field picks. It's a bit of a stretch picking Sanga on the basis of his single test as wicket keeper against the West Indies during the period. Also Rashid Khan can't really be considered dominant with 1 test. In the spirit of picking a spinner I'd take Ashwin instead.
The genuine keepers who scored the most runs during this time were Prior, Dhoni and Haddin, then there's a wide gulf to McCullum, Boucher, Rahim and Jayawardene. If we go for not specialist keepers during that time, AB De Villiers played 7 tests and averaged 41 with the bat during this time. Or alternatively, you could pick the current Australian test captain, Tim Paine, because why not, it's the "in" thing at the moment.
Statistically, in that era (which I will be the first to admit really sucked when trying to find good players from) Prior was the best batsman but a case could be made for Dhoni being the best keeper or Haddin/BMac both being good aggressive bats that won tests. I've already swiped Dhoni for the second team (and he's not as dominant in tests as he is on ODI cricket, but he's still a very good batsman and a top quality keeper) so your pickings are even slimmer.
ABDV, Chanderpaul and Younis Khan had the best batting averages from the era, all of whom averaged 60 in the five year period. None were dominant per-se but you're picking a third team so maybe you could swap Lara and Donald for Healy and McGrath and play ABDV at 5. You could move Ponting up to 3, which is his preferred position anyway. The tail is a bit long so maybe we could sub out Thomson for G Chappell. Although this period was Imran's batting peak, I'd rather a specialist bat and sub in Waqar (who took a lot more wickets than Imran during this time) instead.
B Richards 68-73
Greenidge 83-88
Ponting 03-08
G Pollock 63-68
G Chappell 73-78
AB De Villiers 08-13
Healy 93-98
Akram 88-93
Ashwin 13-18
Waqar 78-83
McGrath 98-03
That bowling attack looks almost as potent as the previous two. The batting lineup is rock solid and you have an ATG keeper at 7.
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
His peak wasn't too different from his career. He was very inconsistent with the bat. His two best years were split by his three worst years.
The best I could find were the first five years of his career where he averaged 38.7 with the bat and 21.9 with the ball.
srbhkshk
International Captain
Pretty damn good anyway.
The Battlers Prince
International Vice-Captain
I think Miller had 41 & 23 for 47-51? But that was something I was looking at earlier at work (not focusing), so they could be wrong
Days of Grace
International Captain
Alltime Peak XI
(Best records for 50 innings)
JB Hobbs (1910-1925)
SM Gavaskar (1977-1980)
DG Bradman (1930-1946)
IVA Richards (1976-1981)
RT Ponting (2004-2006)
AC Gilchrist (1999-2002)
Imran Khan (1980-1986)
RJ Hadlee (1984-1988)
MD Marshall (1984-1988)
Waqar Younis (1990-1994)
M Muralitharan (2003-2007)
(Best records for 50 innings)
JB Hobbs (1910-1925)
SM Gavaskar (1977-1980)
DG Bradman (1930-1946)
IVA Richards (1976-1981)
RT Ponting (2004-2006)
AC Gilchrist (1999-2002)
Imran Khan (1980-1986)
RJ Hadlee (1984-1988)
MD Marshall (1984-1988)
Waqar Younis (1990-1994)
M Muralitharan (2003-2007)
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a massive zebra
International Captain
No Garry Sobers or Sydney Barnes? From a purely statistical perspective, when did Gavaskar have a superior peak to Herbert Sutcliffe?
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Days of Grace
International Captain
Sobers and Barnes were very close. The peaks are based on adjusted performances across 50 innings.
jimmy101
Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah, I had Prior/Haddin on the radar but plumped for Sanga for WK (and admittedly cheated a little bit). Ashwin, or maybe even Yasir Shah, are good shouts for the spinners role.
smash84
The Tiger King
Why is Waqar playing international cricket in 1978 when he was not even 10 years old?
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
We all know how Pakistani players lie about their age.
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Honestly that should be Imran. I was a bit befuddled when I wrote that. I blame my 1yo who is teething.