*Official* India Tour of England 2018

[TheJediBrah]

Joe's not the worst on flat decks in ODI against a stronger attack:

4th ODI, England tour of Australia and New Zealand at Dunedin, Mar 7 2018 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

While disagree with John1990 completely on the topic, if anything one could argue that match actually proves his point. England could have made 380+ if Root hadn't taken a third of the balls in the innings making a run a ball hundred. Look at all those guys wasted who just came in at the very end of the innings to throw their wickets away.

Anyway, John1990, while there is a very small chance that you are correct regarding the path ODIs are taking (roads and 400+ becoming the new good score), I really hope you aren't. That would destroy the value of ODIs IMO and just turn them into slogfests, essentially extended T20s. What would be the point of them? ODIs need tougher batting conditions, more often, to have any value in a cricketing landscape increasingly populated by T20s.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

While disagree with John1990 completely on the topic, if anything one could argue that match actually proves his point. England could have made 380+ if Root hadn't taken a third of the balls in the innings making a run a ball hundred. Look at all those guys wasted who just came in at the very end of the innings to throw their wickets away.

Anyway, John1990, while there is a very small chance that you are correct regarding the path ODIs are taking (roads and 400+ becoming the new good score), I really hope you aren't. That would destroy the value of ODIs IMO and just turn them into slogfests, essentially extended T20s. What would be the point of them? ODIs need tougher batting conditions, more often, to have any value in a cricketing landscape increasingly populated by T20s.

Actually, England goes from 1 wicket down in the 38th over to 7 wickets down in the 44th.

I chose the scorecard for a reason. England was on target for 400 despite Root playing a long innings.

As for the rest of your post, this is exactly what England is doing in ODI cricket. They're not making any secret about it.

From the flat pitches, to the heavy hitter #batdeep line ups, England ODI cricket is a whackathon. Bowlers are there to contain (bar Willey), not knock teams over with swing and seam, they use scoreboard pressure instead.

This is where the WC will be next year. So teams need to counter strategy. Because even if England lose 0-3 to India next week, England isn't going to change what they're doing anytime soon.

When touring people can try giving them more difficult pitches, but #batdeep keeps them in the contest. So they have wickets to lose before sussing out all the bowlers and what the pitch is doing.

And if the pitch is too juicy, suddenly Woakes looks like a proper bowler. England's strategy won't always win, no strategy will, but it has got them regularly ahead of the game, with a bowling line up that noone will write top selling books about.

That's the most impressive thing, not a single bowler in their team is on Boult, Starc, Hazlewood, Bumrah, BK, Steyn, RKhan, MMorkel, Santner, Sodhi et al's level. But England wins.

I mean I rate Plunkett, but most fans don't as all he does is hit a hard back of a length. Wood's terrible. Stokes isn't there without his batting. Ali is insulted regularly. Rashid isn't IPL sought after, Willey has only just started bowling out his full compliment regularly. Ball is weak. Sam and Tom Curran don't appear to offer much. Woakes is often their best regarded bowler - but he isn't that highly regarded as a bowler.

 

[marc71178]

People questioning Root don’t understand cricket and are solely looking at scorecards without any concept of match situation.

 

[Pratters]

Who is Mr. Miyagi. Almost 2000 posts in around 2 months.

 

[Borges]

Ali is insulted regularly. Rashid isn't IPL sought after

Rashid is a fine bowler; completely outbowled Moeen Ali when the two played together in India. There aren't too many overseas spinners who get picked by IPL franchises.

Just tell me who are these guys who insult this Ali regularly, and I shall straighten them out instantly.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Rashid is a fine bowler; completely outbowled Moeen Ali when the two played together in India. There aren't too many overseas spinners who get picked by IPL franchises.

Just tell me who are these guys who insult this Ali regularly, and I shall straighten them out instantly.

There's plenty of overseas spinners sought by IPL teams. It is a right of passage for a limited overs spin bowler.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

It is funny, almost everyone jumped on John1990's back about Root in T20i - but Root has in fact done stuff all in t20i for the last 2 years since 2015/16.

There was one game in India where he guided the team home with a run a ball 46* (after Morgan broke the back of the chase) http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...gland-1st-t20i-england-tour-of-india-2016-17/

- but it has been rather ugly overall. He did this in the next two games:

2nd T20I (N), England tour of India at Nagpur, Jan 29 2017 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

3rd T20I (N), England tour of India at Bengaluru, Feb 1 2017 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo


Hales has had good time of it in these two years, and Dawid Malan -out of nowhere and almost forgotten about has had an absolutely blinding t20 career thus far:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/236489.html?class=3;template=results;type=batting

How did he get discarded so promptly?

Root is keeping these guys out of the team when all players are fit.

John is not a guy I would describe as lacking a concept of match situation nor not understanding cricket. He has a strong argument. And gave reasons to his justification and playing style he wants to see. People don't have to agree with it, but he's certainly not way off point with this. I'd say its a case of he's done his homework, followed the games and recent performances closely, and caught a few people off guard with his comments.

Root needs a good t20i score soon or he is in jeopardy - Hales wants #3 if Roy opens with Buttler, so does Malan, and Stokes will be back at some point - so who gets squeezed out? Surely not Bairstow and Morgan is the captain. Maybe Stokes could replace Ball, but at some point Moeen will return and thus a batsman has to go at that point. There's going to be a squeeze when fully fit, and Root hasn't been putting up the numbers to keep Hales at bay all that readily, and I personally wouldn't drop Bairstow for Root right now. In fact, I'd have Bairstow bat at 3 or 4 (ahead of Root and Morgan).

Root has a problem of fitting in into this England t20i team, especially at #3. I think Root can adjust his game, because I saw him at the WT20 play blinding knocks against quality attacks. I don't doubt he has the skill. But he needs to deliver soon, because Bairstow imo is wasted at 6 (he deserves to be higher), and Hales and Malan are demanding further opportunities. There is a selection squeeze on if all bar Root remain in form. Root needs some form already. Or he could end up drifting up and down the order and in and out of the team like JP Duminy does at intl and franchise level, only there for in case of emergencies.

Buttler by moving to opener has aggravated the problem with Hales at 4 and Bairstow at 6 looking completely out of place behind Root at 3. And I still am struggling to get over Billings' dream run of opportunities never seized when Malan gets discarded like this.

 

[Adders]

It is funny, almost everyone jumped on John1990's back about Root in T20i - but Root has in fact done stuff all in t20i for the last 2 years since 2015/16.

Errr, no they didn't. John categorically stated both limited overs format when he was questioning Roots place in the side......he back peddled when he got challenged on it and tried to then make it all about T20.

Look I don't care if Root gets picked in the T20 side or not.......it's a nothing format that counts for squat outside of the World Cups (and Root was arguably our best batsmen in the last one) but anyone questioning his place in the ODI side does not know cricket afaic.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Errr, no they didn't. John categorically stated both limited overs format when he was questioning Roots place in the side......he back peddled when he got challenged on it and tried to then make it all about T20.

I disagree.

John's first post:

Great turnaround from Hales after the other day, he's now made himself basically undroppable...MOTM performance from him..England made it closer than it should have been. England must pick Hales and Stokes over Root in t20 cricket.

What amazes me more isn't the Hales debate, it is why is noone wondering where Malan is when Billings gets so many chances at the t20i and ODI teams? How long is the waiting line for Sam Hain?

 

[Adders]

Perhaps I am being harsh on John, it was this post I was thinking about and he didn't say Root shouldn't be picked for the ODI side more that he is not the best batsmen.....which is debatable.

This is the problem with some cricket fans. He’s our best batter in tests . That’s it. There are three formats. Anyone calling Root England’s beat batter in either limited overs format is talking out their backside.

If you have a favourite player that’s fine, but don’t talk nonsense about Root. To say he’s England’s best player in limited overs (or either limited overs format) isn’t even a subjective debate , it’s plain wrong.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Perhaps I am being harsh on John, it was this post I was thinking about and he didn't say Root shouldn't be picked for the ODI side more that he is not the best batsmen.....which is debatable.

Yeah, Bairstow has definitely outshone everyone in the recent past in a smaller sample, and Buttler's star keeps on shining (I like Woakes too believe it or not), but Root is a very very fine ODI player, no doubt. Simply outstanding numbers at 3 over a large sample and bowls well too. His ODI career is in no jeopardy at all.

I think John consistently raises interesting points of view. He's certainly not conservative, but he isn't without reason. I value his contribution to the forum when he's not caught in a flame war.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2018/07/07/spinners-underbowled-t20-cricket/

It’s fourth down in an American football game: the last phase of play before the offensive team must give the ball up to their opponents unless they can move it forward ten yards. Most sides attempt a field goal or punt the ball down the field, thereby returning possession to the other side, rather than ‘go for it’ - choosing to run with the ball again, in the hope of carrying the ball ten yards, whereby their team get another four downs.

And most teams are wrong. The average NFL team gives up 0.5 wins a season, out of the eight they get, because they don’t ‘go for it’ enough. Sport is a conservative world, in which received wisdom often counts for more than dispassionate statistical analysis. Often this scepticism is healthy, for human judgement must never be lost. But sometimes adherence to old tropes can hold the progression of a sport back...T20 is encouraging more outside voices to enter cricket, unshackled by the sport’s old orthodoxies...Where there is inefficiency in sport, so there is opportunity: a chance for teams to recalibrate their strategy to get more wins. Since the nerds calculated that NFL coaches were too conservative, they have started to go for it more on fourth down. For the savviest T20 teams, led by those not conditioned to think in the ways of the old cricket, greater embrace of analytics is likely to lead to using spinners more, in all phases of the game.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I don't think just your wicketkeeping skills should warrant you a place in the side, though. Also from IPL I'm quite convinced that blokes like Pant and Rahul can keep decently in LO games (both kept to good spinners as well as fairly pacy bowlers). Dhoni simply isn't reliable anymore as a finisher. I can't trust Dhoni to hit those 50 off 30 and boost the total during the death like I can trust Pant even if the guy hasn't played a single ODI yet. I'm not saying Dhoni isn't scoring runs or is looking terribly out of form. He just can't score them quick enough and takes more than three overs before he even starts attempting to loft his shots. If he has to be in the team for the experience and keeping, he should ideally bat at 4 imo, but now that Rahul is introduced in the top order I guess no. 5 won't be so bad either, but no spot lower than that. Sending guys like Jadhav, Pandey or Raina in before him is plain ridiculous. Dhoni is finally looking like he can smash big scores if he's given time at the crease, so its incredibly stupid of Kohli to send him so low down the order when he already has hitters like Raina and Hardik.

I like a lot of the content in your post, but, Pant hasn't been blasting the death in t20 (bar his century or when he is well set), he has been blasting higher up in the order. Pandey is just a ridiculous selection altogether imo. Is he seriously being selected because he can field better than the alternatives? Because he struggles to up the tempo and hit the ball off the square when the heat of scoreboard pressure gets put on him.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Interesting video on cricinfo with Morgan facing the journo's:

He says "most of the top 6 want to open" - that would be I assume Hales, Roy, Buttler and Bairstow. And that they have not sorted out the batting order of the top 6 at all. Further that Ben Stokes returning is creating a selection head ache.

And that Hales a "strong case" for the next game and despite Buttler opening well, Morgan doesn't think they have sorted out the middle order to the best combination.

Sounds like Buttler may be asked to go back down the order depending on which way England goes with selection.

http://aws.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/video_audio/1151588.html

 

[trundler]

Who is Mr. Miyagi. Almost 2000 posts in around 2 months.

The south sea Richard

 

[Jack1]

It is funny, almost everyone jumped on John1990's back about Root in T20i - but Root has in fact done stuff all in t20i for the last 2 years since 2015/16.

There was one game in India where he guided the team home with a run a ball 46* (after Morgan broke the back of the chase) 1st T20I (D/N), England tour of India at Kanpur, Jan 26 2017 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

- but it has been rather ugly overall. He did this in the next two games:

2nd T20I (N), England tour of India at Nagpur, Jan 29 2017 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

3rd T20I (N), England tour of India at Bengaluru, Feb 1 2017 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo


Hales has had good time of it in these two years, and Dawid Malan -out of nowhere and almost forgotten about has had an absolutely blinding t20 career thus far:

Batting records | Twenty20 Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

How did he get discarded so promptly?

Root is keeping these guys out of the team when all players are fit.

John is not a guy I would describe as lacking a concept of match situation nor not understanding cricket. He has a strong argument. And gave reasons to his justification and playing style he wants to see. People don't have to agree with it, but he's certainly not way off point with this. I'd say its a case of he's done his homework, followed the games and recent performances closely, and caught a few people off guard with his comments.

Root needs a good t20i score soon or he is in jeopardy - Hales wants #3 if Roy opens with Buttler, so does Malan, and Stokes will be back at some point - so who gets squeezed out? Surely not Bairstow and Morgan is the captain. Maybe Stokes could replace Ball, but at some point Moeen will return and thus a batsman has to go at that point. There's going to be a squeeze when fully fit, and Root hasn't been putting up the numbers to keep Hales at bay all that readily, and I personally wouldn't drop Bairstow for Root right now. In fact, I'd have Bairstow bat at 3 or 4 (ahead of Root and Morgan).

Root has a problem of fitting in into this England t20i team, especially at #3. I think Root can adjust his game, because I saw him at the WT20 play blinding knocks against quality attacks. I don't doubt he has the skill. But he needs to deliver soon, because Bairstow imo is wasted at 6 (he deserves to be higher), and Hales and Malan are demanding further opportunities. There is a selection squeeze on if all bar Root remain in form. Root needs some form already. Or he could end up drifting up and down the order and in and out of the team like JP Duminy does at intl and franchise level, only there for in case of emergencies.

Buttler by moving to opener has aggravated the problem with Hales at 4 and Bairstow at 6 looking completely out of place behind Root at 3. And I still am struggling to get over Billings' dream run of opportunities never seized when Malan gets discarded like this.

I appreciate mature and sensible posting. Root is definitely England’s weak link in t20i considering his prolonged poor form in limited overs cricket. He isn’t mobile in the field either and has a weak arm.

The selection situation of Root is because they don’t want to risk knocking his test form I think. But if he’s so out of nick anyway in t20i then picking him is possibly doing more harm than good at this point to Root and the team.

There are players about that for me would be more effective for this England team. A batting line up that’s full of power and bats all the way down the order. You have to make maximum use of the 120 balls as we have mentioned before.

Kohli the other day with his excessive anchor cost Indian the game in my view. There was no need for such a slow platform. India needed 160+ to win that game. Players like Root and Kohli need to adapt or risk being left behind in t20 cricket. Root especially who has less power and less skill than Kohli.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I appreciate mature and sensible posting. Root is definitely England’s weak link in t20i considering his prolonged poor form in limited overs cricket. He isn’t mobile in the field either and has a weak arm.

The selection situation of Root is because they don’t want to risk knocking his test form I think. But if he’s so out of nick anyway in t20i then picking him is possibly doing more harm than good at this point to Root and the team.

There are players about that for me would be more effective for this England team. A batting line up that’s full of power and bats all the way down the order. You have to make maximum use of the 120 balls as we have mentioned before.

Kohli the other day with his excessive anchor cost Indian the game in my view. There was no need for such a slow platform. India needed 160+ to win that game. Players like Root and Kohli need to adapt or risk being left behind in t20 cricket. Root especially who has less power and less skill than Kohli.

Yeah, look I find your argument and criticisms persuasive. The masses may not, but I think you're possibly onto something. Quick runs or bust when there's contenders waiting in queue both below and outside the team. Root's role needs defining if he stays. It is pretty simple.

 

[Jack1]

I disagree.

John's first post:



What amazes me more isn't the Hales debate, it is why is noone wondering where Malan is when Billings gets so many chances at the t20i and ODI teams? How long is the waiting line for Sam Hain?

Yes as you say Malan has been treated badly. Average 50 with zero not outs in 5 t20is with a 150.6 SR.

He’s still got more runs than Billings in the format. Averaging 13 in 18 games is not pretty for Billings. Stokes has also struggled for England in t20 with the bat, but is a gun fielder and can bowl if fit. Stokes has also improved his batting lately in ODI cricket. But overall his t20i stats make painful reading to be honest and need plenty of work (with bat and ball). When you compare Stokes in t20i to Maxwell (who is a hit and miss cricketer at times in terms of performance) there is a world of difference.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Yes as you say Malan has been treated badly. Average 50 with zero not outs in 5 t20is with a 150.6 SR.

He’s still got more runs than Billings in the format. Averaging 13 in 18 games is not pretty for Billings. Stokes has also struggled for England in t20 with the bat, but is a gun fielder and can bowl if fit. Stokes has also improved his batting lately in ODI cricket. But overall his t20i stats make painful reading to be honest and need plenty of work. When you compare Stokes in t20i to Maxwell (who is a hit and miss cricketer at times in terms of performance) there is a world of difference.

John1990 - in my opinion, you know your England team better in limited overs, esp t20 than many like to think they do. You don't buy into truisms, and while you're the very antipathy of a conservative, you justify your points well enough for my liking. I may disagree with you at times, but you've not been void of reason so as to ridicule or warrant insults that you have received.

I like your posts. I hope you continue with them. Forums work better with more independent thinkers.

 

[Prince EWS]

John1990 - in my opinion, you know your England team better in limited overs, esp t20 than many like to think they do. You don't buy into truisms, and while you're the very antipathy of a conservative, you justify your points well enough for my liking. I may disagree with you at times, but you've not been void of reason so as to ridicule or warrant insults that you have received.

I like your posts. I hope you continue with them.

Cute.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Cute.

Awwww look, I made a mod's heart melt.

Shame about his avatar. Shouldn't bet I guess.