Can Ashwin beat Murali's 800?

[Migara]

Doesn't that support the point that they weren't very good v spin?

Have it any way you like, but the point stands that Warne benefitted more by playing England more.

 

[TheJediBrah]

True. Looking at these numbers, it is safe to say that England were real minnows against spin during Warne/Murali time.

No it's not. It's safe to say they were minnows against Warne and Murali.

Have it any way you like, but the point stands that Warne benefitted more by playing England more.

Warne's average against England is only 2 runs lower than his career average. It's nothing compared to Murali v Minnows, playing so much in Asia etc.

the "Warne got to play against England a lot" argument is just not that influential

 

[TheJediBrah]

This includes a higher percentage of matches against India and Pakistan, who played spin better. If Murali played the same percentage of matches as Warne did against each opposition, he would have had a lower away average.

I don't think that's true in the slightest either. If he played the same as Warne he would have never played any minnows, against whom he averaged 6-7 runs less than his career. Just that alone makes a huge difference.

 

[Jack1]

True. Looking at these numbers, it is safe to say that England were real minnows against spin during Warne/Murali time.

England were really bad against spin in that era yes. Then again not many teams were great against Warne and Murali. It would be interesting to compare the stats for other spinners in the era to make a definite judgement. I remember Murali bowling loads of overs at England even in England. England were on the most part clueless against him, especially the tail.

 

[TheJediBrah]

England were really bad against spin in that era yes. Then again not many teams were great against Warne and Murali. It would be interesting to compare the stats for other spinners in the era to make a definite judgement. I remember Murali bowling loads of overs at England even in England. England were on the most part clueless against him, especially the tail.

I have, there's nothing really to suggest it. I just checked in England though, not against England in Asia because I didn't see it as particularly relevant.

 

[Jack1]

I don't think that's true in the slightest either. If he played the same as Warne he would have never played any minnows, against whom he averaged 6-7 runs less than his career. Just that alone makes a huge difference.

There are other factors at play here as already mentioned. It was far easier to be any type of Aussie bowler in that era than Sri Lankan bowler. Warne's average is lower than it would have been playing for Sri Lanka. His body wouldn't have been able to cope with Murali's work load. And as mentioned the scoreboard pressure (and pressure from the likes of McGrath) that Warne relied on he wouldn't have had. Nor would he have had the chirp and competitive edge of the entire team behind him. Murali edges Warne for me despite Murali playing a lot of games against minnows. Warne was a great bowler though and even I'm not 100% sure in my mind who was better to be honest.

 

[TheJediBrah]

There are other factors at play here as already mentioned. It was far easier to be any type of Aussie bowler in that era than Sri Lankan bowler. Warne's average is lower than it would have been playing for Sri Lanka. His body wouldn't have been able to cope with Murali's work load. And as mentioned the scoreboard pressure (and pressure from the likes of McGrath) that Warne relied on he wouldn't have had. Nor would he have had the chirp and competitive edge of the entire team behind him. Murali edges Warne for me despite Murali playing a lot of games against minnows. Warne was a great bowler though and even I'm not 100% sure in my mind who was better to be honest.

Yeah m8 there are many factors either way, no one's denying that. I wouldn't begrudge anyone for choosing to rate Murali slightly higher. There's never going to be a definitive answer.

 

[Black_Warrior]

He's have been clobbered in the ranji and probably wouldn't gave even made the team ahead of kumble.

Idea for Slippy's next thread. Would Shane Warne make it to Baroda XI?

 

[Black_Warrior]

Not sure where this comes from. The other biggest leg-spinner during Warne's career, Kumble, averages 41 in England (career avge: 29).

That's because you've got the wrong 'other great leg spinner during Warne's time'

Avg vs England: 32
Avg in England: 28 including two matchwinning performances

1st Test, Pakistan tour of England and Scotland at London, Jul 25-29 1996 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

3rd Test, Pakistan tour of England and Scotland at London, Aug 22-26 1996 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

 

[Black_Warrior]

Doesn't that support the point that they weren't very good v spin?

This is one of those conveniently shifting goal posts.

It completely depends on the player you are talking up and the player you are talking down.

If it's the former, then no matter how bad the opposition were, it's a test match and counts just as much

If it's the latter, then the opposition was crap so doesn't matter

This is at the heart of most player vs player debates on Cricket Web.

 

[Migara]

I don't think that's true in the slightest either. If he played the same as Warne he would have never played any minnows, against whom he averaged 6-7 runs less than his career. Just that alone makes a huge difference.

If you do your math properly by considering number of balls each player bowled, for common opposition the averages will be 25.9 and 26.0 for Murali and Warne respectively, and when Aus and SL added, 25.58 and 25.51. And Murali would have picked up additional 20 wickets in the process, compared to 307 away wickets he has. This is away averages only.

 

[Borges]

for common opposition the averages will be 25.9 and 26.0 for Murali and Warne respectively... This is away averages only.

Hmm.... This is interesting.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Not really. It's taking the idea of cherry picking stats to the next level.

 

[Borges]

So it would appear that:
if there is no cherry picking of stats, Murali (800 wickets @22.72, WPM 6.0, SR 55.0) >> Warne (708 wickets @25.41, WPM 4.9, SR 57.4)
but by careful cherry picking of stats, it is possible to 'prove' that Murali == Warne or even that Warne > Murali

 

[TheJediBrah]

So it would appear that:
if there is no cherry picking of stats, Murali (800 wickets @22.72, WPM 6.0, SR 55.0) >> Warne (708 wickets @25.41, WPM 4.9, SR 57.4)
but by careful cherry picking of stats, it is possible to 'prove' that Murali == Warne or even that Warne > Murali

No, you're being deliberately obtuse.

If you have to go through so many hoops to get the stats you want, that's cherry picking. One guy playing 9 times more games against minnows, or playing more than 60% of his matches in a country traditionally friendly to spinners is clear as daylight. No one's saying that these are the only 2 factors, that would be cherry picking. But they're the most clear and easily demonstrable, and quantifiable.

Almost everything else is speculative.

 

[Borges]

they're the most clear and easily demonstrable, and quantifiable.Almost everything else is speculative.

I had already admitted earlier that "by careful cherry picking of stats, it is possible to 'prove' that Murali == Warne or even that Warne > Murali"

I'm very glad, and grateful, that you agreed with me wholeheartedly, and provided an excellent example of such cherry picking.

It is good that there is complete agreement on this matter between everyone here.

 

[Migara]

No, you're being deliberately obtuse.

If you have to go through so many hoops to get the stats you want, that's cherry picking. One guy playing 9 times more games against minnows, or playing more than 60% of his matches in a country traditionally friendly to spinners is clear as daylight. No one's saying that these are the only 2 factors, that would be cherry picking. But they're the most clear and easily demonstrable, and quantifiable.

Almost everything else is speculative.

How about playing 3 times more against England, but twice less than India, where Warne was taken to cleaners?

 

[Burgey]

Why would you want to go to India?

 

[Migara]

Why would you want to go to India?

Why would you when your arse gets handed to you repeatedly as a spin bowler?

 

[Burgey]

No, I mean in general.