The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[stephen]

As someone to come in at 6 or 7, you have two options. You can have a Bevan type, or a Symonds type. I disagree so strongly with the argument that he isn't in the top echelon of batsmen. I can't think of many players I'd prefer to come in to finish an innings with 5-15 overs left. Symonds IS the man for that situation. Which puts him clearly in the top echelon.

I'm not gonna defend his bowling as it clearly isn't ATG standard, but it was tidy, maybe a bit meh, but it was effective and did a job. I wouldn't select him in an ATG team as the sole fifth bowler anyhow.

His fielding is another thing, but I've said enough how much I rated him. He was the GOAT imo.

When you look over batting averages and runs scored in the lower order there are few who get near Symonds' stats.

But the really great thing about Symonds is how he could play a big/long innings if needed. A few times he'd come in at 4/80 and take us to 270+. That versatility down the order basically wins games.

Yep his bowling is 6th bowler material in an ATG team but his bowling is very similar statistically to Jayasuriya's (albeit without the longevity). He's literally the perfect player to slot in at 7 in an ATG side. His competition for that spot is basically Klusener who was better with the ball and marginally worse with the bat.

And fielding is so dramatically underrated in ODIs it's not funny. Symonds was possibly the best ever ring fielder the game has seen.

 

[the big bambino]

If the choice came down to Symonds v Kluesner then it’s Symonds.

 

[jimmy101]

I'm a big a fan of Symonds as anyone, but can someone please point out why Symonds is regarded as a betting in the ring fielder than Jonty Rhodes?

Not saying that Jonty deserves to get in an ATG ODI on his fielding alone, but as far as I could tell he was just as accurate with his throws, just as athletic, yet quicker than Symonds on his feet & possibly even had a safer pair of hands too.

 

[OverratedSanity]

He wasn't better than Jonty in the ring imo. No one was.

But a case can be made for Symonds (and ponting) to be better and more versatile all-round fielders than Jonty. Symonds especially, was incredible in the outfield.

 

[jimmy101]

If the choice came down to Symonds v Kluesner then it’s Symonds.

Tough call tough. Klusener has better averages with both the ball & bat in ODIs. Symonds has a SR of 92 in comparison to Klusener's 90, yet Klusener edges out Symonds in the bowling economy rate side of things (4.7 vs 5.0).

 

[jimmy101]

He wasn't better than Jonty in the ring imo. No one was.

But a case can be made for Symonds (and ponting) to be better and more versatile all-round fielders than Jonty. Symonds especially, was incredible in the outfield.

For sure, Symonds & Chris Cairns were the Gods of outfielding.

 

[stephen]

If the choice came down to Symonds v Kluesner then it’s Symonds.

Well realistically an ATG ODI side is going to have either Gilchrist or Dhoni or De Kock batting up the order so the #7 is an all rounder spot.

I think that the three best candidates for the position are Kapil Dev, Lance Klusener and Andrew Symonds, with Kapil being the best with the ball and Symonds being best with the bat. Klusener was amazing at both but I think the other two were slightly better at their better discipline.

 

[stephen]

Tough call tough. Klusener has better averages with both the ball & bat in ODIs. Symonds has a SR of 92 in comparison to Klusener's 90, yet Klusener edges out Symonds in the bowling economy rate side of things (4.7 vs 5.0).

Klusener scored a lot less runs than Symonds in a similar length career. Zulu was used a lot as a bowler and batted right down the order at times. Gun player though.

 

[smash84]

Well realistically an ATG ODI side is going to have either Gilchrist or Dhoni or De Kock batting up the order so the #7 is an all rounder spot.

I think that the three best candidates for the position are Kapil Dev, Lance Klusener and Andrew Symonds, with Kapil being the best with the ball and Symonds being best with the bat. Klusener was amazing at both but I think the other two were slightly better at their better discipline.

Kapil definitely a better option than Symonds imo. Not awesome with the bat but he could score very quickly (far ahead of his time iirc) and wasn't a complete mug, Plus on the bowling side you get an ATG bowler and decent fielder to boot.

 

[srbhkshk]

Kapil at 7 & Pollock at 8 should be perfect. One can open with Sanath if some spin support is needed, Tendulkar's always there anyway.

 

[harsh.ag]

Watson's underrated.

It's Klusener vs Kapil vs Symonds vs Watson for the number 7 spot.

 

[akilana]

And Klusener wins

 

[watson]

Watson's underrated.

It's Klusener vs Kapil vs Symonds vs Watson for the number 7 spot.

Kapil is the only quality bowler in that list so if you pick Klusener, Symonds or Watson then there should be a part-time bowler included in the Top 6 to help bowl the 10 overs.

In an ATG XI context this generally means swapping Gilchrist for Jurasuriyah anf playing Dhoni at No.6.

 

[akilana]

Klusenar and Watson were proper bowlers and not meh bowler like Symonds.

 

[marc71178]

Kapil is the only quality bowler in that list so if you pick Klusener, Symonds or Watson then there should be a part-time bowler included in the Top 6 to help bowl the 10 overs.

In an ATG XI context this generally means swapping Gilchrist for Jurasuriyah anf playing Dhoni at No.6.

Not sure what you mean by swapping someone who isn't in the team out of it...

 

[the big bambino]

Tough call tough. Klusener has better averages with both the ball & bat in ODIs. Symonds has a SR of 92 in comparison to Klusener's 90, yet Klusener edges out Symonds in the bowling economy rate side of things (4.7 vs 5.0).

Well realistically an ATG ODI side is going to have either Gilchrist or Dhoni or De Kock batting up the order so the #7 is an all rounder spot.

I think that the three best candidates for the position are Kapil Dev, Lance Klusener and Andrew Symonds, with Kapil being the best with the ball and Symonds being best with the bat. Klusener was amazing at both but I think the other two were slightly better at their better discipline.

Oops. You're both right. It is close. Lance is clearly the better bowler but for the position they are competing for I'd rate batting prowess just ahead of bowling. I see Symonds has 6 tons, Lance 2. I think Symonds the more versatile batsmen as well. Plus he appears the better fielder. Symonds by a subjective whisker.

 

[Gowza]

No love for Freddy, he’s a quality ODI allrounder, if I want a bowling allrounder he’s probably my go to guy, batting allrounder is symonds or watson, actually it’s probably watson because he’s a much better bowler than symonds. Problem with klusener is he didn’t score enough runs to compete with watson and symonds and his bowling is solid but not spectacular. Kapil was a solid bowler with terrific hitting but wasn’t consistent enough with the bat or spectacular enough with the ball.

Freddy’s batting average is low compared to lance’s but they have a similar amount of runs, flintoff did it in less innings, he only has 16 not outs compared to 50 for klusener which can explain the difference in average but everything else as far as batting is pretty similar, as far as bowling, freddy is clearly ahead.

 

[mr_mister]

In Kluseners defence he holds the title of the best overall WC performance ever. He was unstoppable with the bat in 1999 and took plenty of wickets

 

[smash84]

No love for Freddy, he’s a quality ODI allrounder, if I want a bowling allrounder he’s probably my go to guy, batting allrounder is symonds or watson, actually it’s probably watson because he’s a much better bowler than symonds. Problem with klusener is he didn’t score enough runs to compete with watson and symonds and his bowling is solid but not spectacular. Kapil was a solid bowler with terrific hitting but wasn’t consistent enough with the bat or spectacular enough with the ball.

Freddy’s batting average is low compared to lance’s but they have a similar amount of runs, flintoff did it in less innings, he only has 16 not outs compared to 50 for klusener which can explain the difference in average but everything else as far as batting is pretty similar, as far as bowling, freddy is clearly ahead.

What exactly do you mean by him not being spectacular with the ball? Was the number 1 odi bowler in the world for some time

 

[CricAddict]

Klusenar and Watson were proper bowlers and not meh bowler like Symonds.

Yes, Symonds cannot be considered for the allrounder position. He either gets the No 6 position or he doesn't. No 7 is not his position in a ATG team. He was not an allrounder but just a part-time bowler like Tendulkar. Klusenar, Kapil, Flintoff, Watson etc. were proper allrounders.