The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[srbhkshk]

Once Virat ends his career, who among him and Viv will take the #3 ?

 

[morgieb]

Once Virat ends his career, who among him and Viv will take the #3 ?

Seems like Viv batted 4/5 quite a bit unlike Kohli, so probably Kohli. Hard to underestimate what both have done at ODI level though, miles ahead of the competition.

 

[harsh.ag]

Kallis is an amazing addition to most ODI sides in history, just not a great candidate for the all time XIs.

 

[marc71178]

He averaged 40 at a SR of over 90. He is literally the perfect guy to have come in with 10-15 overs left.

Really struggle to see why you’d find that so objectionable as a selection tbh.

Being an entire package doesn’t make him bits and pieces.

I'd prefer someone like a de Villiers and then picking another proper batsman.

He's being selected because of a "bit of this" and "bit of that" which is pure bits and pieces - his entire package is way below ATG level in every facet except fielding (and even then it's not is if the slight drop off to say a Ponting is worth the considerable increase in batting you'd gain.

 

[stephen]

I agree that JK sometimes struggled to accelerate the innings, but I think you are doing him a disservice in saying he 'batted for a draw'. I presume this is the game you are referring to?

I remember the game well. Our bowlers got absolutely carted around, Pollock went wicketless for 80odd. Then our openers, predominantly AB, got us off to a great start, before he was run out thanks to a Shane Watson direct hit from the fence. Kallis came in, and wickets started falling all around him as our innings was snuffed out. Also, 48 off 63 might not be quick enough when you are chasing near 380, but its hardly batting for a draw.

That's the game.

He came in and the entire momentum of the game changed. The batsmen at the other end started panicking due to Kallis' slowness. Really, given the 438 game a couple of years before it, SA were in with a shot with the start that Smith and de Villiers gave them. But Kallis killed all momentum and didn't have the decency to get out early.

Incidentally de Villiers was in beast mode that match, as was Hayden. It was a scary innings (though at the time Smith was the bigger SA star).

 

[stephen]

Watson > Symonds imo

100.%

The only justification for picking Roy is his fielding, plenty of better bats/bowlers to fill his spot and I don't think you can pick him on fielding alone despite how gun he was.

Also, people rating Kohli and AB over Sachin, Ponting or even Viv must consider the era that they played in instead of pure stats. If it wasn't for the T20 era, Sachin would have never got a 200 in ODIs.

So like I said then, a bits and pieces player. There’s so many better batsmen around then him it’s a joke to even consider him as one of the best middle order players ever.

I'd prefer someone like a de Villiers and then picking another proper batsman.

He's being selected because of a "bit of this" and "bit of that" which is pure bits and pieces - his entire package is way below ATG level in every facet except fielding (and even then it's not is if the slight drop off to say a Ponting is worth the considerable increase in batting you'd gain.

This is the list of middle order batsmen who scored >1000 runs, have an average >35 and a strike rate >85.

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Dhoni, De Villiers, Richards and Kohli have all been talked about and are locks for either the first or second AT XI.

This is the list of the other players who haven't been talked about:

Hussey, Yuvraj Singh, Morgan, Raina, KP, Buttler, Miller, Stokes, RTD and Safraz Ahmed. That's the entire list. Yuvraj may have a case as being as good of a batsman as Symonds. Morgan I'm surprised to see so high in the list.

Of this list, only Hussey and KP were genuinely better batsmen than Symonds, and in KP's case not by a lot. I would not argue if one of these two were picked ahead of him as batsmen if the side had five genuine bowlers. But if the side included Jayasuria as the fifth bowler, I'd take Symonds down the order. As good as Jaya was, he wasn't a genuine ATG bowler. In fact statistically he was pretty close to Symonds with the ball (similar economy, average and WPM).

And the other thing which is intangible is just how freaking good Symonds was in the field. He was a beast and would create runouts from nothing and saved a ton of runs in the field. That places a lot of pressure on batsmen and can force mistakes.

Symonds' inclusion is dependent on whether you want to balance your team with 5 ATG bowlers and 6 ATG batsmen or go with 4 ATG bowlers, 2-3 part timers and 7 ATG batsmen. The only other comparable middle order player was Klusener who was a better bowler but worse bat and had an even shorter peak than Symonds.

He averaged 40 at a SR of over 90. He is literally the perfect guy to have come in with 10-15 overs left.

Really struggle to see why you’d find that so objectionable as a selection tbh.

Being an entire package doesn’t make him bits and pieces.

Absolutely. He also had the ability to dig his team out of a hole if they had a collapse. His innings vs Pakistan in the 2003 WC was so memorable but it wasn't the only time he made a big score exactly when his side needed it. Thoroughly underrated player.

Kallis is an amazing addition to most ODI sides in history, just not a great candidate for the all time XIs.

This is exactly right. He's one of those blokes who would be third or fourth picked for any side in the world at any time but really wasn't exceptional enough to be considered for an AT XI.

 

[akilana]

Ponting used that game to get into SA's heads so well. Called Kallis a slow poke and SA a team that lacked aggression. Then in the semifinal, as if their sole purpose was to prove Ponting wrong their entire batting lineup, Kallis included, tried to score at 12 runs per over and got rolled for 150 odd. Top class mind games.

Mind games or SA wanted to go hard regardless of what Ponting said we wont know.

 

[akilana]

Kallis had a sr of 73 in the 1st innings whereas Bevan's was 80. And this is despite Kallis playing ODIs in the T20 era when scoring rates have shot up in a big way compared to the 90s.

Lol Kallis debuted in 96-97. T20 was started in 2007 and Kallis SR went up in that period.

 

[srbhkshk]

If Symonds deserves a place in the side, then so does Yuvi, he is also a handy spinner and was a brilliant fielder before cancer, he was also brilliant in both the T20 and the ODI cups that India won.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Lol Kallis debuted in 96-97. T20 was started in 2007 and Kallis SR went up in that period.

That's the point. Even after the increase in his SR in the T20 era, his career SR still only ended up at 73.

 

[stephen]

One thing I didn't mention was just how difficult it actually is to have a high average batting down the order. The guys who can do it well are few and far between. It's one reason why I think Hussey is criminally underrated. Most high averaging batsmen in ODI cricket do so batting 1-4 because that usually gives them enough time to construct their innings. Batsmen who can average 35+ at a strike rate of 85+ in the middle order are a huge asset to any side. Regardless of whether anyone thinks I overrate Symonds or not, the group of batsmen who did that is tiny and should be praised.

 

[stephen]

If Symonds deserves a place in the side, then so does Yuvi, he is also a handy spinner and was a brilliant fielder before cancer, he was also brilliant in both the T20 and the ODI cups that India won.

He was statistically worse than Symonds as a batsman and bowler. His longevity makes up for it somewhat. But the real thing which separates them is that Yuvi didn't bowl anywhere near as much as Symonds did. Symonds took more career wickets than Yuvi despite playing 2/3 the number of games.

 

[akilana]

Also, people rating Kohli and AB over Sachin, Ponting or even Viv must consider the era that they played in instead of pure stats. If it wasn't for the T20 era, Sachin would have never got a 200 in ODIs.

Kohli has a rep for being a good chaser. I maybe wrong but I have a feeling they are mostly in Asia Or against SL

 

[akilana]

That's the point. Even after the increase in his SR in the T20 era, his career SR still only ended up at 73.

No it isnt. Because he has already played far too many matches before the arrival of T20. You said Kallis played in T20 era which was totally wrong.

 

[OverratedSanity]

No it isnt. Because he has already played far too many matches before the arrival of T20. You said Kallis played in T20 era which was totally wrong.

No. My point was that he played on for a full decade after Bevan's retirement when strike rates have been constantly increasing and yet his overall strike rate is worse.

 

[stephen]

On a side note, has there ever been a player who has had a greater disparity between their home and away/neutral records as Symonds?

Symonds averages 49.55 away/neutral and 29 at home. That's a 20 run gap in favour of the away/neutral grounds. Who else can be considered an "away track bully"?

 

[akilana]

One thing I didn't mention was just how difficult it actually is to have a high average batting down the order. The guys who can do it well are few and far between. It's one reason why I think Hussey is criminally underrated. Most high averaging batsmen in ODI cricket do so batting 1-4 because that usually gives them enough time to construct their innings. Batsmen who can average 35+ at a strike rate of 85+ in the middle order are a huge asset to any side. Regardless of whether anyone thinks I overrate Symonds or not, the group of batsmen who did that is tiny and should be praised.

your point is Symonds should be praised for what he did? Sure I do but I don’t think this was the thread for it.

 

[stephen]

Kohli has a rep for being a good chaser. I maybe wrong but I have a feeling they are mostly in Asia Or against SL

The closest thing Kohli has to a hole in his record is his away average of 32 vs England, 37 vs South Africa and 43 vs Australia.

I'd take a batsman with a "poor" record of 43 in Australia vs Australia any day of the week. The guy is a gun.

 

[akilana]

No. My point was that he played on for a full decade after Bevan's retirement when strike rates have been constantly increasing and yet his overall strike rate is worse.

But that wasnt what you said before. You said kallis played in T20 era. Kallis played around 6 years in t20 era And his SR improved in that period

 

[stephen]

your point is Symonds should be praised for what he did? Sure I do but I don’t think this was the thread for it.

My point was that Symonds is top drawer material for a lower order hitter and part time bowler. He really doesn't have many comparable players. People consider Jayasuria an ATG and he has worse stats than Symonds (excluding longevity). Almost all of the statistically comparable players to Symonds batted higher in the order where it's easier to get the big averages.