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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Chrish

International Debutant
In the 90 overs a day era, can a hypothetical all time WI XI still operate with their quartet if they have Sobers as an all-rounder?

Might be controversial opinion, but it would be more beneficial for the team if Sobers bowl just as many overs as the regular bowlers and they play without specialist spinner. His batting might suffer a bit but overall strength of their batting can make it affordable. On the other hand, loosing even one bowler of quartet significantly weakens the bowling line up IMO.

And Sobers might not be even bowling that many overs anyways when you have Marshall, Ambrose, Garner and Holding operating the attack.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
In the 90 overs a day era, can a hypothetical all time WI XI still operate with their quartet if they have Sobers as an all-rounder?

Might be controversial opinion, but it would be more beneficial for the team if Sobers bowl just as many overs as the regular bowlers and they play without specialist spinner. His batting might suffer a bit but overall strength of their batting can make it affordable. On the other hand, loosing even one bowler of quartet significantly weakens the bowling line up IMO.

And Sobers might not be even bowling that many overs anyways when you have Marshall, Ambrose, Garner and Holding operating the attack.
They took little heed of the 90 overs in their heyday. They just bowled at the same rate. I once left Lords at nearly quarter to eight. These days the cut off is half hour past the close even if the overs aren’t bowled so I still don’t think they’d be too bothered.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Dhoni vs Gilchrist isn't as clear cut as comparing their averages. You need to compare how good they are versus their competition in the spots and how well they would combine with the replacement for the other player.

So for Gilchrist you need to look at how good he was as an opener vs other aggressive openers and combine that with Dhoni's replacement down the order (who in an AT team seems to be Bevan). In Gilchrist's case you're losing the bowling of Jayasuria and picking up someone who is universally recognised as the second best ODI batsman of all time and the best chaser in history.

In Dhoni's case you're picking up the bowling abilities of Jayasuria and sacrificing the world's best chaser for the world's second or third best chaser.

It's a tight call and I think the decision comes down to where they play. Pick Dhoni in the subcontinent because his combination with Jayasuria is more valuable there. Outside the subcontinent though and the drop in batting from Jayasuria and Dhoni is overtaken by the Gilchrist+Bevan combo.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Man, if it’s at the SCG Sanath is the first dude picked. Used to score tons at will there.
 

srbhkshk

International Captain
If Sanath plays, there's no need of a fifth bowler, one could just go (as Sachin \ Richards can get a few overs done between themselves) -

Sachin
Sanath
Richards
Kohli
ABD
Bevan
Dhoni
Pollock
Akram
Warne (Murali ?)
McGrath

Fine team IMO.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Dhoni vs Gilchrist isn't as clear cut as comparing their averages. You need to compare how good they are versus their competition in the spots and how well they would combine with the replacement for the other player.

So for Gilchrist you need to look at how good he was as an opener vs other aggressive openers and combine that with Dhoni's replacement down the order (who in an AT team seems to be Bevan). In Gilchrist's case you're losing the bowling of Jayasuria and picking up someone who is universally recognised as the second best ODI batsman of all time and the best chaser in history.

In Dhoni's case you're picking up the bowling abilities of Jayasuria and sacrificing the world's best chaser for the world's second or third best chaser.

It's a tight call and I think the decision comes down to where they play. Pick Dhoni in the subcontinent because his combination with Jayasuria is more valuable there. Outside the subcontinent though and the drop in batting from Jayasuria and Dhoni is overtaken by the Gilchrist+Bevan combo.
You don't half spout some bollocks in the name of championing Australians. If someone is universally known as the second best batsman in ODI history they'd already be in the team.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You don't half spout some bollocks in the name of championing Australians. If someone is universally known as the second best batsman in ODI history they'd already be in the team.
Picking an ODI team isn't necessarily about picking the six best batsmen and four best bowlers though. There are a lot more considerations given to team balance and roles.

You need to pick openers. Through 40 years of experience we've found that the best combination is a high averaging opener and an explosive opener. The explosive guy is there to try and demoralise the opponents and take the game away from them during the initial power play. The other one is there to anchor the innings. There have been a number of explosive openers - Sehwag, Gilchrist, Jayasuria, Warner and de Kock to name a few. The high averaging openers to partner with them would be someone like Sharma, Amla, Tendulkar, Lara, Watson. The best of the high averaging openers was Tendulkar and by a fairly large margin. Of the explosive openers, there isn't a huge amount to separate them (the higher averages of Warner and de Kock is probably explained by the era in which they have played as much as anything else). De Kock, Gilchrist and Jayasuria all have a second string to their bow. De Kock will probably topple Gilchrist as the best keeper/bat opener in history by the time his career ends, but for now, Gilchrist is fractionally ahead of him. Jayasuria gives a genuine bowling option, especially in the subcontinent. Given his average/strike rate/bowling ability Watson could be considered in this role, though I don't like him as much as the other three. So that gives us:

Tendulkar
Gilchrist/Jayasuria

We then need to look at the other batsmen in the order. If we pick Gilchrist we need 10 overs from the numbers 3-7. If we pick Jayasuria we need a keeper from 3-7.

Viv is a lock in the order. He is the best ODI batsman in history. So we really have three picks left.

Most of the top quality sides have had a specialist chaser. The batsman who was there at the finish to chase down the winning runs. There have been many but the best candidates are Bevan, Dhoni, Hussey, Inzi, and Kohli. You only need one of these guys and their strike rate is relatively unimportant. It's there job to ensure you win. The best of these is Bevan. The second best is Dhoni (the gap is wider outside the subcontinent).

So we have Bevan/Dhoni.

If we've picked Gilchrist, we still need to pick up 10 overs between our last three picks. If we've picked Jayasuria we still need a keeper. Since Dhoni is the next best keeping option anyway, there's no point picking Bevan if we've already got Dhoni, because their batting role in the team is the same. If we've picked Dhoni there's no point picking Gilchrist because we then have two keepers, we're better off picking Jayasuria. Picking both Bevan and Dhoni is overkill for the same reason that picking Gilchrist and Dhoni is overkill.

So we now have:

Tendulkar
Gilchrist/Jayasuria
Viv
Bevan/Dhoni
-
-
-

Now the best number 5 in the history of the game is ABDV, so he slots in there.

Which leaves #6 and #7. With Gilchrist/Bevan we need 10 overs from one of these two. The best bowler who batted #6 or #7 was Klusener, who bats #7 Kohli can slot in at 4 and push Bevan down to 6, where he spent half his career anyway.

With Jaya/Dhoni we need power and maybe a bowler who we could get 3-5 overs from if Jaya is getting tonked. In that case the best option is Symonds who can offer a handy 3-5 overs, is a gun fielder and averaged 39 at a strike rate of 90. Kohli can bat 4 and Dhoni can slide down one place. Leaving the two lineups looking like:

Tendulkar
Gilchrist
Viv
Kohli
ABDV
Bevan
Klusener

and

Tendulkar
Jayasuria
Viv
Kohli
ABDV
Dhoni
Symonds

The bowlers is an interesting one. Assuming we are going for a standard 3 fast/1 spin option.

We could start by looking at the spin options. Saqlain, Warne and Murali. All three bowlers were excellent in ODIs and all have their strengths and weaknesses as bowlers. Warne was a better bat than Saqlain who was better than Murali. If Murali can bat 11, then it doesn't matter. Saqlain can realistically bat 9 and no higher. Warne is just good enough to fill in as a #8.

The fast bowlers give us a few options. It's almost universally agreed that Garner is the #1 ODI fast bowler of all time. McGrath and Wasim numbers 2 and 3 (the order of these two depends on who you talk to - some will talk up McGrath's WC exploits, some will talk up Wasim's ability to do magic with the ball). Hadlee is an option for his batting. Realistically though, Garner, McGrath and Wasim are the three best ODI fast bowlers of all time and should be picked. This means that we need Warne to bat 8.

Giving a final XI of:

Tendulkar
Gilchrist/Jayasuria
Viv
Kohli
ABDV
Bevan/Dhoni
Klusener/Symonds
Warne
Akram
Garner
McGrath

I tend to think that the gap is so small between those two possibilities that I'd pick the Jaya/Dhoni/Symonds team in the subcontinent or where spin is favoured and Gilchrist/Bevan/Klusener outside the continent or where pace is favoured.

I know that was a long answer as to why the second best bat in ODI history is not an automatic pick in an ODI XI but there you go. If de Kock keeps going the way he's going and ends up eclipsing both Gilly and Dhoni then Bevan becomes an automatic pick.

The second XI I haven't thought about but could be:

Watson/Amla/Warner/Greenidge/Abbas
Gilchrist/Jaya
Ponting
Sangakkara
Bevan/Dhoni
Hussey
Klusener/Symonds
Hadlee
Saqlain
Holding
Donald

For what it's worth, the second XI would give the first XI a run for its money, though I'd expect the first XI to win probably 70% of the time.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Symonds fast making a case for most overrated player. He was good but in all time great circles he’s a bits and pieces player and nowhere near the all time first team.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Symonds fast making a case for most overrated player. He was good but in all time great circles he’s a bits and pieces player and nowhere near the all time first team.
Underrated if anything. Avg of 40 with a SR of 92, handy with the ball, and probably the best fielder I’ve seen. I’d want him in my team every day if these were real teams to play real games.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
It's simple for me:

Tendulkar
Gilchrist
Richards
Kohli
DeVilliers
Symonds
Kapil
Wasim
Garner
Murali
McGrath

Jayasuriya
Watson
Ponting
Lara
Dhoni
Hussey
Klusener
Warne
Starc
Ambrose
Donald
 

Tom Flint

International Regular
Kallis odi batting average is 44 with 11500 runs. Bowling is 31 with a 4.7 economy

Watson batiing average 40 with only 5700 runs. Bowling is 31 with economy of 4.9

Only thing watson has over kallis is batting strike rate but maybe thats down to his last few years being when kallis werent playing and scoring rates improved in general. Or maybe im wrong about that
 

srbhkshk

International Captain
Kallis odi batting average is 44 with 11500 runs. Bowling is 31 with a 4.7 economy

Watson batiing average 40 with only 5700 runs. Bowling is 31 with economy of 4.9

Only thing watson has over kallis is batting strike rate but maybe thats down to his last few years being when kallis werent playing and scoring rates improved in general. Or maybe im wrong about that
Don't think Kaliis ever scored particularly quickly even in IPL, the SR is the reason he typically gets left out of ODI ATG sides.
 

Tom Flint

International Regular
Not even a mention though with over 11000 thousand runs and 270 wickets. Suppose he was hindered by not being australian
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
My lasting memories of Kallis as an ODI player are of him coming in after Smith had got SA off to a cracking start chasing 350 in a WC game against Australia and batting for a draw.

It's hard to think he belongs anywhere near an AT side when that's what you remember.

Kallis' biggest problem was that he didn't have that extra gear that most other great players did.
 

Tom Flint

International Regular
A guy with nearly 12000 runs and 270 wickets in one format of the game should never be far from the atg xi discussion
 

akilana

International 12th Man
My lasting memories of Kallis as an ODI player are of him coming in after Smith had got SA off to a cracking start chasing 350 in a WC game against Australia and batting for a draw.

It's hard to think he belongs anywhere near an AT side when that's what you remember.

Kallis' biggest problem was that he didn't have that extra gear that most other great players did.
I don’t know but he won the first ever champions trophy for SA with his batting( striking better than run a ball hundred in the semi) and bowling(final). Since you admitted to only watching Australian matches in the Duminy retirement thread, I don’t blame you for not knowing this.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Kallis' overall SR in ODIs was pretty mediocre. Can't see him in an ATG team because essentially he has to bat at 3 and anchor the innings, and when there are plenty of other to do that as effectively as he does, but at a far superior SR, he can't make it in.

He'd obviously be a handy 5th bowler, but he can't bat at 3/4 over Viv, Ponting, Kohli etc, and he can't bat at 5/6/7 because of his SR.
 

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