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Stokes Arrested

Burgey

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Lol... is that how argue cases when you don't have a proper answer?


That was a genuine question, btw... How, in that moment, is a person supposed to know the other person is standing down? Its one thing to sit down in a court room on a morning after a nice breakfast in air conditioning and a group of old guys chit chatting, quite another to actually be there and understand what is going on. And I dunno about British or Australian laws but at least in India, the very essence of the law is to ensure the innocent is not punished. It has its pluses and minuses but if this happened in India, I dont think it would be too difficult to get Stokes off on the self defence and "the other guy started it" arguments. Maybe Teja can comment in detail though.
No I’m trying to explain how the law works. I had an analagous case to this lasy year but instead of a bottle one bloke had a club lock, his mate had a shovel and the fella in the role of Ben Stokes’ had a sawn off .22 calibre rifle which he shot one bloke through the neck with and killed him.

The two blokes came to his street after threatening his mum and him. He confronted them on the street to stop them getting into his house. They argue in the street and they’re all terrified, but the crucial evidence of a bystander is the two blokes are stepping backwards and my bloke takes a step forward before there’s a loud pop. There is no self defence in that situation. If the bloke had advanced on him with the shovel there may be.

Anyways, one kid dead, one doing 13 on the bottom and two families ruined.
 

Woodster

International Captain
I don't know of all the legal implications and I'm trying to look at this from a neutral point of view. The footage doesn't show the lead up to what's gone on, and I haven't read the full story so maybe I'm playing the part of the Sun aswell in only going off half the story.

People seem to be defending the bloke that got punched because he was going backwards and that Stokes wasn't acting in self-defence. If a group of lads come at you on a night out and one of the group throw a bottle or hit one of your mates with a bottle, then if his mates didn't want any trouble they just get their mate out of there and that's it. They seem to be hanging around and looking for something to happen, you can't start something like that then expect the other people to just calm down because you're retreating and you say that's an end to it! Emotions are running high at that point, I'd like to see the full incident and if they've gone at Stokes and his mates then ultimately a slap in the chops is what they deserve!
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Since I have nothing better to do this morning, and since we suddenly have loads of experts on English criminal law on here, I'll outline the position re: self-defence in an attempt to keep the dire posts to a minimum. So here goes.

In the UK you are allowed to use force to defend yourself if you believe there is a threat to you or to people around you or to your property, and that the use of force is necessary to neutralise that threat.

There does not need to be any actual threat, you just have to genuinely believe there is.

The level of force you use to defend yourself from the threat (whether real or imaginary), however, must be proportionate (i.e. not excessive) to the threat as you perceive it to be. So in other words, the more serious the threat, the greater level of force you will be entitled to use.

Once the threat has been neutralised, the use of force must stop. If there is no threat and you continue to use force, you are no longer acting in defence, but are in fact the aggressor.

However, you do not have to wait to be attacked in order to use self defence. Pre-emptive strikes are allowed, so you can "hit first" and still be defending yourself.

Also, whilst the level of force you use must be proportionate to the level of threat, you are not expected to weigh your actions to a nicety, and the fact that you may have acted in the "heat of the moment" will be taken into account when making any determination about this.

Anyway, applying all this to the Stokes situation, Stokes has used a pretty high level of force to someone who appeared to be retreating from him (i.e. no longer a threat). This would suggest Stokes' conduct was unlawful.

The only way he will successfully be able to argue his way out of this on the basis of self defence is if he can convince the court that he genuinely believed the retreating guy to be a serious threat to him at the moment he punched his lights out. Same also for the kicks.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Whose the prick kicking the guy in the head when's on the placement tho? What a little bitch that guy is.
Going purely by the video, coupled with the photos of what Stokes and Hales were wearing, it looks a lot like Hales. Right size, build, hair colour, clothes. I'm pretty sure it's the same bloke who is later going after Stokes and trying, perhaps a bit half-heartedly, to call him off. I might be way wide of the mark here obviously.

That doesn't look good. Kicking someone when they're down. He might be able to argue that the guy was still trying to grab at Stokes, so he was acting in his defence. But I'm not sure whether kicking someone who's on the floor in the head/neck is reasonable force, even when allowances are made for acting in the agony of the moment.
 

S.Kennedy

International Vice-Captain
You could argue Hales comes across worse. At least Stokes had the decency to go toe to toe in, what could have theoretically been, an even contest. Kicking someone on the ground however...
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Anyway, applying all this to the Stokes situation, Stokes has used a pretty high level of force to someone who appeared to be retreating from him (i.e. no longer a threat). This would suggest Stokes' conduct was unlawful.

The only way he will successfully be able to argue his way out of this on the basis of self defence is if he can convince the court that he genuinely believed the retreating guy to be a serious threat to him at the moment he punched his lights out. Same also for the kicks.
Also the person retreating hadn't used force on him/them and in fact looked like trying to get things to an end. That is a whole different thing then.

Weird to be posting on opposite sides within a span of ten minutes or so :happy:
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Also the person retreating hadn't used force on him/them and in fact looked like trying to get things to an end. That is a whole different thing then.

Weird to be posting on opposite sides within a span of ten minutes or so :happy:
Not really. The key issue is whether Stokes believed this guy was a threat. From a legal perspective that is the issue that everything hinges on here.
 

flibbertyjibber

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You could argue Hales comes across worse. At least Stokes had the decency to go toe to toe in, what could have theoretically been, an even contest. Kicking someone on the ground however...
If it is Hales, whoever the bloke putting boot in is a coward and should get done for it. Would have no problem if they got a worse punishment than Stokes.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Not really. The key issue is whether Stokes believed this guy was a threat. From a legal perspective that is the issue that everything hinges on here.
Would heat of the moment and being drunk etc be a mitigating issue during trial or sentencing?
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Not really. The key issue is whether Stokes believed this guy was a threat. From a legal perspective that is the issue that everything hinges on here.
Sure, but the reasonableness of his belief would have been much greater if it had been the same guy who attacked them to begin with, right?
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Sure, but the reasonableness of his belief would have been much greater if it had been the same guy who attacked them to begin with, right?
Yeah but his belief doesn't have to be reasonable. Only genuine. His belief could be totally unreasonable and irrational so far as the law is concerned, but as long as he genuinely held it that's all that is relevant here.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah but his belief doesn't have to be reasonable. Only genuine. His belief could be totally unreasonable and irrational so far as the law is concerned, but as long as he genuinely held it that's all that is relevant here.
Yeah but a judge would figure that piece of info when trying to figure out if he had a genuine belief, right? As opposed to blind anger.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Yeah but a judge would figure that piece of info when trying to figure out if he had a genuine belief, right? As opposed to blind anger.
Yeah, which you'd think wouldn't be difficult. But we must remember that if there is any doubt about this then he'd be acquitted. Unless the court was satisfied that Stokes definitely did not believe the bloke to be a threat, he'll probably get off.
 

TNT

Banned
You can argue about self defence and threats or whatever but it is clear that Stokes went way to far and was out of control. If he is slapped on the wrist then it will only happen again and probably with a worse outcome for the victim. Defending his actions and making out that it was acceptable behaviour in the end will only make things worse. He needs to know the consequences of overstepping boundries and cannot be left thinking this is acceptable.
 

Shri

Mr. Glass
Nah, he needs therapy more than punishment. SO does the **** who thought it was cool to bring a bottle into a fight, maybe more so than Stokes.
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You can argue about self defence and threats or whatever but it is clear that Stokes went way to far and was out of control. If he is slapped on the wrist then it will only happen again and probably with a worse outcome for the victim. Defending his actions and making out that it was acceptable behaviour in the end will only make things worse. He needs to know the consequences of overstepping boundries and cannot be left thinking this is acceptable.
Nonsense (in terms of knowing how this kind of stuff works out)
 

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