The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[the big bambino]

Lee NSW ATG LMFAO

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Only in ODIs.

He's behind McGrath and Davidson easily and Spofforth if you're willing to go back that far. If you want to include Lindwall he's ahead of Lee as well.

Jack Gregory as well IMO

 

[Red]

Only in ODIs.

He's behind McGrath and Davidson easily and Spofforth if you're willing to go back that far. If you want to include Lindwall he's ahead of Lee as well.

Plus Miller

 

[morgieb]

Put Lindwall back in a blue cap where he belongs please.

Actually make them give back Walters, Border and Chappell.

Wait, Doug Walters played for Queensland?

I knew Lindwall and Border did, and Border is basically a favourite son of Queenslanders, but I always thought Walters spent his whole career at NSW.

Oh and Thommo should also be in NSW's side. Or in the frame for it, anyway.

 

[the big bambino]

Yeah give back Thommo. Bankstown could come up with a better side than Qld. And Walters never played for Qld though there was a Max Walters that did but he was ordinary even by Qld standards.

 

[S.Kennedy]

Yorkshire

Hutton
Sutcliffe
Root
Leyland
Illingworth
Close*
Jimmy Binks+
Rhodes
Hirst
Verity
Trueman

Yes, it is packed with allrounders and I couldn't find room for Boycott.

 

[jimmy101]

Bear in mind that Headley's (pre-war) average was boosted by the weakened attacks England picked against WI, especially in tours of the WI: e.g. in his debut series the England bowlers were Voce (20, on his Test debut), Haig, Rhodes (52), Stevens, Astill (none of whom played in the Ashes series the next summer); in the 1935 series the principal England bowlers were Farnes, Smith (debut), Hollies (debut), Paine (debut) and Wyatt.

If you exclude those Tests - i.e. just consider his matches in England/Australia between the wars - his average was about 50. Which FWIW is pretty much the same as Sobers' average in England/Australia.

Nice. To hear that Headley and Sobers average roughly the same in FC matches in Aus or Eng sounds just about right to me.

 

[jimmy101]

How can you reasonably make a case for Headley? He faced 2nd rate English bowling attacks and the quality of bowling he faced in the FC circuit is questionable. Can't find any reasonable argument that justifies his place in the company of Viv, Sobers etc

The quality of bowling he faced at FC level was not "questionable". Like I mentioned earlier, almost a quarter of his FC games were legitimate, actual Test matches (all of them bar one were against either Eng or Aus). Yes, it's true the MCC would often withhold their best players when selecting touring parties back then, but those squads contained bowling attacks that were better than most of the county sides of their time (which is saying quite alot).

Moreover, it wasn't until 1965 when the West Indies actually had a recognised & fully functioning first-class system. Before then, the Carribean islands had the Inter-Colonial Tournament, a competition between Barbados, British Guiana & Trinidad, which took place every two or three years. Headley was from Jamiaca, so wouldn't have actually taken part in many inter-island matches to begin with. As Andrew pointed out, his FC average drops to a level akin to Sobers' when taking only matches in England & Australia into account (which is still outstanding, mind you), and then of course when all of his other miscellaneous FC matches over the years are added into the equation his FC average naturally rises because he was a great batsman who dominated lesser bowlers, like you'd expect him to do.

 

[jimmy101]

Binga in an NSW all time XI is a bit like his bowling tbf... touch wide of the mark.

 

[Gob]

Nah Brett was awesome and deserves his place

 

[morgieb]

My attempts at ATG state XI's. Using where they learnt their cricket/made their FC debuts as the eligibility criteria.

NSW

Trumper
Simpson
Bradman
Border *
S Waugh
Clarke
Gilchrist +
Davidson
Lindwall
O'Reilly
McGrath

Victoria

Woodfull *
Lawry
Ponsford
Harvey
Hassett
Miller
Trumble
Blackham +
Warne
Hughes
Johnston

Queensland

Hayden
Brown
Love
Burge
Law *
Symonds
Healy +
Johnson
Kasprowicz
McDermott
Ironmonger

South Australia

Blewett
Phillips
Hill
G Chappell
I Chappell *
Lehmann
Harris
Gillespie
Langley +
May
Hawke

Western Australia

Rogers
Langer
Katich *
Martyn
Hussey
Hughes
R Marsh +
Lillee
MacGill
Alderman
Reid

Tasmania

Cox
Di Venuto
Boon
Ponting *
Bailey
Badcock
Woolley +
Walker
Nash
Hilfenhaus
Campbell

 

[stephen]

It's a pretty long bow to draw to put Border and Gilchrist in NSW or Harris in SA. Border is a Queenslander through and through, Gilly is a Wozzie and Harris didn't get good until he came to Queensland.

Lindwall could be either QLD/NSW given he spent roughly half his time in both, similarly to Bradman being a NSW/SA player.

 

[stephen]

And using the first state robs QLD of G Chappell as well. Never realised how many of our guns started elsewhere and moved here because QLD is awesome.

 

[SeamUp]

Always tough doing these as so many players originate/start-off at home teams but do better things at other teams.

Western Province

Gary Kirsten
Graeme Smith
Peter Kirsten
Jacques Kallis
Eddie Barlow/Adrian Kuiper
Allan Lamb/Herschelle Gibbs/Ashwell Prince
Brian McMillan/Peter Swart/Eric Simons
Gavin Pfuhl/ Dane Vilas (wk)
Garth Le Roux
Stephen Jefferies/Craig Matthews
Denys Hobson/Paul Adams/Grahame Chevalier/Claude Henderson/Harry Bromfield

Best overseas : Desmond Haynes, Graham Gooch, John Emburey

Eastern Cape (Eastern Province and Border)

Philip Amm
Kepler Wessels
Mark Rushmere/Hylton Ackerman (WP), Dave Callaghan
Graeme Pollock (TVL)
Daryll Cullinan (TVL)
Ken McEwan (WP)
Tony Greig
Mark Boucher (wk)
Peter Pollock
Kenny Watson/Brett Schultz(WP)/Meyrick Pringle (WP)
Makhaya Ntini

12th man Tim Shaw/Atholl McKinnon (spinner)

Best overseas : Eldine Baptiste, Vasbert Drakes, Rod McCurdy, Phil Edmonds

Natal

Jackie McGlew
Barry Richards
Hashim Amla
Dudley Nourse
Jonty Rhodes/Roy McLean/Robin Smith
Errol Stewart (wk)
Lance Klusener/Trevor Goddard/Peter Rawson
Mike Procter
Shaun Pollock
Hugh Tayfield
Vince van der Bijl

12th Andrew Hudson (just can't put him next to McGlew/Richards but was so good on his day proven in his test debut knock)

Best overseas : Kim Hughes, Malcolm Marshall, Graham Dilley, John Lever

Transvaal/Gauteng

Bruce Mitchell
Jimmy Cook
Neil McKenzie/Henry Fotheringham/Ali Bacher/Eric Rowan
Graeme Pollock
Lee Irvine
Quinton de Kock/Kevin McKenzie
Clive Rice
Aubrey Faulkner/Alan Kourie/Cyril Vincent
Jonny Waite (wk)
Neil Adcock
Rupert Hanley/Kagiso Rabada/Vince Vd Bijl/Hugh Page

Best overseas : Ken Rutherford, Alvin Kallicharan , Sylvester Clarke, Kenny Benjamin


N.Transvaal/Northerns

Jacques Rudolph
Eddie Barlow
Martin van Jaarsveld
AB de Villiers
Faf du Plessis
Roy Pienaar/Tiger Lance
Denis Lindsay (wk)
Anton Ferreira/Albie Morkel/Tertius Bosch
Fanie de Villiers
Dale Steyn
Morne Morkel

12th Willie Morris/Paul Harris/Imran Tahir (spinner)

Best overseas : Richie Richardson, Mike Haysman

Free State

Dean Elgar
Boeta Dippenaar
Rilee Rossouw
Neil Rosendorff/Kepler Wessels
Hansie Cronje
Morne van Wyk (wk)
Johan van der Wath/Ryan McLaren
Nicky Boje
Allan Donald
Corrie van Zyl
Peter Heine

Best overseas : Alvin Kallicharan , Chris Broad

Rhodesia

Robert Bentley/Ray Gripper
Brian Davison
Colin Bland
Dave Houghton
Tony Pithey
Peter Carlstein
Peter Swart/Duncan Fletcher/Paddy Clift
Howard Gardiner (wk)
Jackie du Preez
Joe Partridge
Goofy Lawrence/Vince Hogg

Best overseas (NON-SA) : Robin Jackman

Before the likes of Kevin Curran, Trevor Penney, Graham Hick, Peter Rawson, Andy Flower, Heath Streak, Eddo Brandes, Murray Goodwin, Neil Johnson, Grant Flower, Tatenda Taibu, Brendan Taylor, Henry Olonga, Ray Price etc

 

[Red]

It's a pretty long bow to draw to put Border and Gilchrist in NSW or Harris in SA. Border is a Queenslander through and through, Gilly is a Wozzie and Harris didn't get good until he came to Queensland.

Lindwall could be either QLD/NSW given he spent roughly half his time in both, similarly to Bradman being a NSW/SA player.

You should put them in whichever FC team they played most for.

 

[Red]

My attempts at ATG state XI's. Using where they learnt their cricket/made their FC debuts as the eligibility criteria.

NSW

Trumper
Simpson
Bradman
Border *
S Waugh
Clarke
Gilchrist +
Davidson
Lindwall
O'Reilly
McGrath

Victoria

Woodfull *
Lawry
Ponsford
Harvey
Hassett
Miller
Trumble
Blackham +
Warne
Hughes
Johnston

Queensland

Hayden
Brown
Love
Burge
Law *
Symonds
Healy +
Johnson
Kasprowicz
McDermott
Ironmonger

South Australia

Blewett
Phillips
Hill
G Chappell
I Chappell *
Lehmann
Harris
Gillespie
Langley +
May
Hawke

Western Australia

Rogers
Langer
Katich *
Martyn
Hussey
Hughes
R Marsh +
Lillee
MacGill
Alderman
Reid

Tasmania

Cox
Di Venuto
Boon
Ponting *
Bailey
Badcock
Woolley +
Walker
Nash
Hilfenhaus
Campbell

Looks like Tassie the only team to field guys who haven't played tests in their ATG side here.

 

[AndrewB]

Nice. To hear that Headley and Sobers average roughly the same in FC matches in Aus or Eng sounds just about right to me.

To clarify, that figure (50) was referring to their averages in Test matches in England & Australia.

 

[AndrewB]

Yorkshire

Hutton
Sutcliffe
Root
Leyland
Illingworth
Close*
Jimmy Binks+
Rhodes
Hirst
Verity
Trueman

Yes, it is packed with allrounders and I couldn't find room for Boycott.

Bit short on pace bowling - maybe bring in FS Jackson and Gough/Bowes for Illingworth/Close and Verity.

 

[AndrewB]

Somerset:

Sunil Gavaskar
Jimmy Cook
Viv Richards
Greg Chappell
Martin Crowe
Steve Waugh
Ian Botham
Rob Turner+
Mushtaq Ahmed
Andy Caddick
Joel Garner

 

[vitalogy83]

Had a crack at a SSC ATG XI

Sidath Wettimuny
Marvan Atapattu
Roy Dias
Mahela Jayawardena
Arjuna Ranatunga (C)
Thilan Samaraweera
Prasanna Jayawardene (wk)
Dhammika Prasad
Nuwan Zoysa
Sohan Boralessa
Nuwan Pradeep