***Official*** Pakistan in New Zealand 2016/17

[HeathDavisSpeed]

See I don't think it's the actual runs Raval scored that has people bewildered in hindsight as to why we'd settled for someone so clearly below Test class as Guptill for so long. It's the fact Raval looked more suited to Test opening in both of those 2 innings than Guptill did in his whole Test career.

Raval did not look better in those two innings than Guptill did in his whole Test career, there's no need to use hyperbole. However, for Raval to score those first innings runs in those conditions was incredibly valuable. What I'm saying it we should forget why Guptill was back in the team in the first place and that was that Rutherspud proved, despite his early success, to be a flash in the pan. We should see how Raval goes once teams have had the chance to analyse his game and react to that before making bold statements. On the other hand, it's good to feel positive with what we saw, but his limitations have been previously mentioned for a reason - people haven't been making them up. He should have had a chance earlier - in India at the very least.

 

[Zinzan]

Raval did not look better in those two innings than Guptill did in his whole Test career, there's no need to use hyperbole. However, for Raval to score those first innings runs in those conditions was incredibly valuable..

It's not hyperbole at all, because I'm not referring to his strokeplay or denying Guptill probably hits a nicer straight 6. I'm talking about actually have a Test openers game, you know the ability & the game to actually be able to see off new ball.

Guptill had so many ways he could be dismissed, where Raval in that short display showed he'd mitigated a number of forms of dismissals which Guptill would have fallen to.

 

[Zinzan]

After Guptill scored a 156, 46, 50 and 1 against Sri Lanka? Definitely had a poor tour of AU but played a few good knows on his recall series in England the one prior. Guptill didn't deserve to be dropped when Australia tour here last. I'd definitely point the finger more at either before his recall in England or after Australia's tour here.

I distinctly remember while you were getting all excited about Guptill managing those runs runs against probably the weakest SL bowling attack to come to NZ & crowing with your 'where dem Guptill haterz now' stuff, I wrote that this will just delay the inevitable further.

It was exactly how I felt when Peter Fulton scored centuries in each innings against England in 2013. Knowing he wasn't really up to Test standard, & that it would probably give him a free pass for 5-6 tests.

Anyway, at least we've finally moved on, even if it was 3-4 of years too late.

 

[Athlai]

Is crowing really the sort of word you want to use there? FFS mate.

 

[Zinzan]

Is crowing really the sort of word you want to use there? FFS mate.

Whatever celebratory word you wish to use, it'll fit.

Also, it was predictable leading into that SL series that if Guptill did finally score some Test runs, that was never going to mean his continued selection following all those previous failures were vindicated, but predictably some here did & carried on like it did somehow.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

It's not hyperbole at all, because I'm not referring to his strokeplay or denying Guptill probably hits a nicer straight 6. I'm talking about actually have a Test openers game, you know the ability & the game to actually be able to see off new ball.

Guptill had so many ways he could be dismissed, where Raval in that short display showed he'd mitigated a number of forms of dismissals which Guptill would have fallen to.

And one Test doesn't prove that. All these international teams have had years to analyse and exploit Guptill's flaws and he's not really been able to counter that. Any assumptions based on one Test is just a gross extrapolation.

Anyway, I hope you're right and there were a lot of positive signs in there for Raval. Good to have a safe pair of hands in the field too - that was definitely another shortcoming of Rutherspud in comparison to Guptill (or Raval, it would seem).

 

[Zinzan]

And one Test doesn't prove that.

I really don't feel I'm going out on a limb by saying he looked so much more a Test opener than Guptill ever did, even based on his first innings, let alone both innings.

I'm purely referring to his set-up at the crease, his judgement outside off-stump & his strength to play the straight ball & score from it.

 

[Athlai]

Bit of prophecy went on with Guptill's hundred against Lanka

Going to be a bit **** in two months time when people start saying Guptill's innings here doesn't count, as though it wasn't the top score by miles.

And on a pitch where it was doing a bit.

Tbf though to those people in the future I was preparing myself to come online and discount his runs, until I noticed the odd fizzer.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Blogs: Hassan Cheema: Is Pakistan's streak without a loss in Test series about to end? | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo

Yeah been getting this feeling in the last few weeks. Misbah's team might just have reached it's ceiling. Not sure if likes of Azhar and Shafiq will show any drastic change and become a run machine ala YK.

 

[Daemon]

And one Test doesn't prove that. All these international teams have had years to analyse and exploit Guptill's flaws and he's not really been able to counter that. Any assumptions based on one Test is just a gross extrapolation.

Anyway, I hope you're right and there were a lot of positive signs in there for Raval. Good to have a safe pair of hands in the field too - that was definitely another shortcoming of Rutherspud in comparison to Guptill (or Raval, it would seem).

Don't really need years to analyse and exploit Guptill's flaws tbh

 

[Zinzan]

Bit of prophecy went on with Guptill's hundred against Lanka

I don't see how any of those comments are relevant or change the fact Guptill could only score runs against weak/below test standard attacks, & I'm telling you that was the weakest SL pace bowling attack I can remember coming to NZ shores, with only the young pacer anything to write home about.

You're a stats-man Athers, have another look at his career breakdown to remind yourself just how inept Guppy was against anything resembling a decent bowling attack.

Most astonishingly for me is in 31 Test innings against Australia and SA, either home or away he never even managed to get to 60 even once.

 

[Athlai]

Which is interesting because Chameera came away with a better strike rate from that series than any Sri Lankan quick ever has from a series in NZ and the Sri Lankan attack from the distant summer 2014/15 was notably shitter. But I suppose they're only the worst in recent memory if it's Guptill squaring up to them and not Spudderford.

 

[Zinzan]

Which is interesting because Chameera came away with a better strike rate from that series than any Sri Lankan quick ever has from a series in NZ and the Sri Lankan attack from the distant summer 2014/15 was notably shitter. But I suppose they're only the worst in recent memory if it's Guptill squaring up to them and not Spudderford.

I referred to the talented youngster above as being the only one you'd write home about, but he was one bowler and was extremely raw.

Look, if you want to convince yourself that those runs against that SL attack proved anything more than Guptill can score runs when it's a sub-Test standard attack, knock yourself out, but the truth of the matter is what's happened since then, namely facing Australian, SA & Indian attacks showed his true worth at Test level.

 

[Athlai]

I referred to the talented youngster above as being the only one you'd write home about, but he was one bowler and was extremely raw.

Look, if you want to convince yourself that those runs against that SL attack proved anything more than Guptill can score runs when it's a sub-Test standard attack, knock yourself out, but the truth of the matter is what's happened since then, namely facing Australian, SA & Indian attacks showed his true worth at Test level.

The Sri Lankan attack from the previous summer was the same attack but without even Chameera!

I'll knock myself out plenty, but the suggestion that Guptill never played well is ridiculous. He is clearly an extremely limited player at Tests but if you want to create a narrative where Raval has already shown than he was better than Guptill ever was then you're just being silly. There were a few good innings among the dregs.

 

[Daemon]

Raval didn't even need to debut to show that he was better than Guptill

 

[Zinzan]

The Sri Lankan attack from the previous summer was the same attack but without even Chameera!

I'll knock myself out plenty, but the suggestion that Guptill never played well is ridiculous. He is clearly an extremely limited player at Tests but if you want to create a narrative where Raval has already shown than he was better than Guptill ever was then you're just being silly. There were a few good innings among the dregs.

Correction... never said he never played well. I did say he was always only going to be successful against weak attacks across any meaningful period of time. Your point about a few good innings across his 89 innings where he did manage a 50 against a decent attacks does nothing to dispute this.

FMD, even tail-enders manage the odd 50 against good bowling attacks, that doesn't mean they're not inept vs. quality bowling overall.

If ever a batsmen's record has ever been reflective of a weak-attack bully, who was inept against decent Test bowling, it's Guptill's record to a tee.

And yes I do want to create the narrative that Raval showed in 2 innings, he has a better set-up as a Test opener than Guptill ever has.

That doesn't by the way follow that those two innings were automatically better than anything Guptill has ever produced at Test level, just that his game is clearly better.

Whether SL's 2014 attack was possibly even worse than their 2016 one, is kind of irrelevant given both were weak attacks in NZ conditions.

 

[Black_Warrior]

What's your take on Amir ? I'm not following the series, but is he bending the ball like 2009 ?

Not really. He has lost his late sideways movement and he tries to make up for it by using angles, bowling wide and close to the stumps to create some sort of deviation but he has clearly lost that movement. That being said, he is still the most dependable seamer in the side, he bowls with the most control, and I can see how he is the one the captain can trust the most as he bowls according to the field and is able to execute specific strategies, something neither Sohail nor Rahat can do.

 

[SteveNZ]

Blogs: Hassan Cheema: Is Pakistan's streak without a loss in Test series about to end? | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo

Yeah been getting this feeling in the last few weeks. Misbah's team might just have reached it's ceiling. Not sure if likes of Azhar and Shafiq will show any drastic change and become a run machine ala YK.

And if it is (I reckon it'll be a rain affected draw in the Tron, FYI), then enjoy the fact you were #1, had a side to be proud of, that performed in home and foreign conditions etc. It's so cyclical, Test cricket.

 

[Black_Warrior]

I do and I am incredibly proud of this team. Just wish it lasted longer, because I have always felt that this team never got the kind of recognition it should have gotten for a variety of reasons. They just never got the attention, coverage, praise for the level of consistency they showed. So you always feel like a bit more success was perhaps needed.

 

[Athlai]

Taylor cleared to play, will get surgery after the Test.