Australian Test Selection 2016/2017

[morgieb]

Also interesting you were arguing for Burns when he pretty much did the same thing as Khawaja/Voges.....

 

[Dan]

I agree.. Australia's batting at home has been pretty rock-solid. In a weird way, they were probably too good.. last summer I barely remember Mitch Marsh coming in in a situation where his runs actually mattered. Either it was a 4/500 type situation, or right in the middle of a lollapse, which he's probably not good enough a batsman to stop.

Yeah, indeed. I think Mitch Marsh has been in a lose-lose situation these past couple of home summers. He came in during a lot of situations where he needed to score quickly to help set up declarations, and as we've seen in ODI cricket too, he's a guy who takes time to get set before he gets into his clean striking mode. So he, naturally, plays for the team and doesn't make many because he's trying to force the pace. Which doesn't help his stats.

Fast forward to the Sri Lanka tour, and he's equal third on the averages (Shaun Marsh and Smith ahead of him, equal with Warner). But not having the career average behind him like Khawaja/Burns/Voges, his overall stats still look far worse. I mean, Marsh averages 12 runs better in Asia than any of the Burns/Khawaja/Voges group, and he's had 10 completed innings cross 9 home Tests.

I'm not trying to suggest that Marsh is the greatest batsman who has ever lived, but he's hardly had the chances at home to prove himself. When he's had the occasional chance -- Adelaide, the Sydney innings that could have boosted the average nicely, an innings in NZ, this match -- he's failed to take it, and he's responsible for that. He knows he has to be better. But I think a lot of the criticism of him comes from reading career averages, and in the case of Marsh (and Nevill), the career average doesn't tell the whole story.

 

[Dan]

This is the same batting lineup that covered itself in glory in Sri Lanka so its hardly one innings.

Yes, yes, because conditions in Sri Lanka and Australia are so incredibly similar.

Australia can't bat overseas. This is nothing new. Collapsing in India all through 2013 didn't stop the exact same players from scoring 500+ all home summer against the exact same Indian team a year later. Collapsing to England in England didn't stop us from winning 5-0 at home straight afterwards, and racking up some pretty useful scores in doing so.

Even at Australia's absolute nadir of overseas batting, they've never had systemic problems scoring runs at home. I'm not calling one innings proof that they've suddenly forgotten how to bat at home as well as away. It's knee-jerk.

 

[NUFAN]

Dan, I think you are giving Marsh too much leeway when you say he's been playing for the team and gotten out helping set out declarations. No doubt it has happened, but I don't recall many instances where I've felt like we should factor some of his outs as searching for quick runs and getting out.

 

[NUFAN]

Surely Marsh comes into question now. 0 wickets and 0 runs. Only bowled 6 overs out of 64 in the first innings.

He might take a bag today or make 50 to save us in the second dig, but I think his time has come now.

Time to play a batsman at number 6?

Yep, I completely agree. I've been thinking about Mitch Marsh on the Test stage and I've come to the conclusion that he'd be really useful in that number 8 role for Bangladesh.

Marshrafe Mortaza

 

[Dan]

Dan, I think you are giving Marsh too much leeway when you say he's been playing for the team and gotten out helping set out declarations. No doubt it has happened, but I don't recall many instances where I've felt like we should factor some of his outs as searching for quick runs and getting out.

Yeah, I'm not saying we should give him leeway for it. Just that the reaction to his career average has been OTT when the majority of his actual batting has happened in the overseas tours where everyone is averaging about 23.

 

[NUFAN]

Yeah, I'm not saying we should give him leeway for it. Just that the reaction to his career average has been OTT when the majority of his actual batting has happened in the overseas tours where everyone is averaging about 23.

Ah ok. I read "So he, naturally, plays for the team and doesn't make many because he's trying to force the pace" to mean that we shouldn't look at those innings at all, when determining how he is going.

I watched a bit of the Australia v Sri Lanka series (that was for Jono) and thought Marsh did look good. But what if this good was close to his best and that's all that he could contribute. I said before the summer that he really needs to be batting up the order for WA at the start of the summer and then come back into the Aussie setup for the short formats. I stand by it.

 

[Salamuddin]

Yes, yes, because conditions in Sri Lanka and Australia are so incredibly similar.

Australia can't bat overseas. This is nothing new. Collapsing in India all through 2013 didn't stop the exact same players from scoring 500+ all home summer against the exact same Indian team a year later. Collapsing to England in England didn't stop us from winning 5-0 at home straight afterwards, and racking up some pretty useful scores in doing so.

Even at Australia's absolute nadir of overseas batting, they've never had systemic problems scoring runs at home. I'm not calling one innings proof that they've suddenly forgotten how to bat at home as well as away. It's knee-jerk.

The sides they have faced at home simply haven't had the ammo to win in Australia.
Scoring a lot of runs at home and that too on very flat decks against INdia or the West Indies doesn't really mean all that much. And the Kiwis only take 20 wickets when the ball is seaming and swinging which it doesn't in OZ.
Its not surprising that SAF have scythed through Australia though - given they are the only side that regularly win tests in Australia.

Are you content with having an Australia batting lineup that only excels against mediocre bowling lineups on flat decks at home ?
Or do you say hangon maybe we can pick some guys who will do well @home against all kinds of opposition and give us better output away ?

 

[Red]

You've got a number 7 that averages 20 in test cricket and a number 6 that averages 24.
You've got a number 5 who averages sub 30 against anyone other than West Indies or NZ.

AFAIC the speculation over Nevill's spot in the team cannot be addressed at all while MMarsh is at 6. The problem with the batting is that we need someone at #6 who can deal with a collapse, and MMarsh is not that player.

Nevill is a pretty decent bat. Averages close to 40 in FC cricket (while MMarsh averages 30). Nevill made 23 in the first innings here, and batted for 53 balls. The runs will come for Nevill in tests. The considerations if Nevill is dropped are to bring back Wade, who is perhaps a better batsman but is a lesser keeper, or replace him with Whiteman or Hartley (both of who have lesser FC batting records than Nevill), or make someone like Bancroft or Handscomb, who haven't really kept in FC cricket and are really batsman. And FWIW, both Bancroft and Handscomb average pretty much the same as Nevill in FC cricket, despite not having played the tests Nev has. Nevill stays.

And finally, on Bancroft or Handscomb being made to keep, that's the way to stuff up a promising batsman's career. See Wayne Phillips in the 80s.

In mid-career, he was asked to become a wicketkeeper on the basis of his experience as a gloveman at underage and club level and as a response to the development of a gaping hole in the Australian team following Rod Marsh's departure. While the move was not without some short-term benefits - his sound wicketkeeping skills and a courageous second Test century on tour in the Caribbean in 1984 encouraged hopes of a long and fruitful stint in the role - it effectively spelled the beginning of the end for his international ambitions. His productivity with the bat waned so steadily thereafter that his Test and ODI careers were both over within a mere three years.

Wayne Phillips | Australia Cricket | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Hold on to your hats it's on

 

[Gnske]

I really do hope we experiment majorly in at least ODIs but preferably at least a Test with some younger blood, especially since Handscomb is guaranteed to play in the inevitable failures in the sub-continent and just for the sake of getting guys like Smith and Khawaja away from infesting the team with poison.

 

[morgieb]

The sides they have faced at home simply haven't had the ammo to win in Australia.
Scoring a lot of runs at home and that too on very flat decks against INdia or the West Indies doesn't really mean all that much. And the Kiwis only take 20 wickets when the ball is seaming and swinging which it doesn't in OZ.
Its not surprising that SAF have scythed through Australia though - given they are the only side that regularly win tests in Australia.

Are you content with having an Australia batting lineup that only excels against mediocre bowling lineups on flat decks at home ?
Or do you say hangon maybe we can pick some guys who will do well @home against all kinds of opposition and give us better output away ?

But the question is though, can the alternatives do so? Burns also failed in Sri Lanka, ditto Henriques. Bancroft has a bit more potential and I like his style but he's not quite bashing the door down, ditto Handscomb. The Patterson's, Lehmann's, Cartwright's, etc of the world need a bit more time to prove whether they are that good IMO.

 

[Furball]

This is insanely knee-jerk to an isolated event. These are the exact same players who made about fifty million runs last summer on the exact same decks. Nobody, Mitch Marsh aside, was undone by glaring technical flaws or utter shite-ness: Smith and Nevill can count themselves pretty unlucky, and Khawaja got one hell of a good ball from Rabada early on.

South Africa is a good bowling attack, and it basically ended up a perfect storm for them after they lost Steyn. They bowled really ****ing well, they had a bit of luck here and there, and they took their chances. An SOS to Cameron Bancroft or Glenn Maxwell wasn't changing that.

I can't think of a single batsman outside of the current squad who, on current evidence, is definitively better than the current top five -- or more importantly, more likely to score runs this series than the current top five. And I say this as a massive Khawaja hater. If, as the series progresses, this is still an issue -- Khawaja being knocked over for single digits, Voges only making 20s -- then you start looking at change. Not after a single innings.

Australia scored about 5 billion runs last summer because they were up against 2 rubbish bowling attacks.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

And the pitches were roads as well ^^^

 

[ImpatientLime]

how close is baby boof to a call up?

 

[morgieb]

how close is baby boof to a call up?

Tough to say. IMO he's probably still a season off, but if he keeps his current form up we could see him lining up for the first Ashes Test next summer. Or even on the India tour.

His last 12 months have been good TSTL. Impressive too given that he was a fringe player before then, too. Has a nice game from what I've seen.

I do wonder how his dad being coach will effect it though. Might Australia be worried about picking him because of percieved nepotism?

 

[Gnske]

Most certainly, It'd be very strange if he came into the squad with snr at the helm.

Mind you, given the year ahead Boof may well be out of a job before he has to worry. Would like to see Lehmann jnr work on his footwork however.

 

[social]

The sides they have faced at home simply haven't had the ammo to win in Australia.
Scoring a lot of runs at home and that too on very flat decks against INdia or the West Indies doesn't really mean all that much. And the Kiwis only take 20 wickets when the ball is seaming and swinging which it doesn't in OZ.
Its not surprising that SAF have scythed through Australia though - given they are the only side that regularly win tests in Australia.

Are you content with having an Australia batting lineup that only excels against mediocre bowling lineups on flat decks at home ?
Or do you say hangon maybe we can pick some guys who will do well @home against all kinds of opposition and give us better output away ?

Yep

We are being beaten easily by a very average SA team in this test, were thrashed by a very average SL team and will likely be thrashed by India

But that's ok because we scored runs on roads against WI

FMD

 

[Julian87]

I know Waugh was harping about this being the team for 2 tests, but I can definitely see 4 seamers and Maxwell in as the spin option at 6 in conjunction with Smith/Voges.

 

[Blocky]

Australia scored about 5 billion runs last summer because they were up against 2 rubbish bowling attacks.

And the pitches were roads as well ^^^

Wow, you mean to tell me that Steve Smith, Usman Khawaja and Adam Voges weren't all the new Bradman's of the day and they just happened to luck upon popgun bowling, state highway wickets and balls that went soft within the first 15 overs?