cricketing narratives that aren't true

[AndrewB]

They did. They also had terrible coaches and a woeful domestic structure.

I take your point because you could have had a 90s team of:

Atherton
Stewart
Hussain
Hick
Ramprakash
Thorpe
Russell
Gough
Caddick
Fraser
Spinner (probably Tufnell)

And on paper that's not too bad. Transpose that side into the mid 00s era with proper workload management, central contracts and better coaches and support staff and I reckon that would have been the nucleus of a pretty decent side. Not a great side, not an all conquering side, but a side that should have been able to hold their own against most if not all sides in the world and who could certainly have won more than they lost.

Judging by recent England sides, if the current selectors were picking from the mid-90s England squad the side would probably be something more like

Atherton
Stewart+
Hussain
Smith
Thorpe
Ramprakash
Hick
Lewis/White
Cork
Gough
Fraser

with Hick as the spinner who could bat a bit.

 

[fredfertang]

Need to find a slot for Neil Fairbrother

 

[Furball]

I get what Flem is saying. Harris went under the radar for pretty much all of his cricket. Was on course to be one of the better ODI bowlers if we ever actually used him, for example. But you just can not detract from the Johnson factor in that series. I've never seen anything like it or the fandom of the fast bowling that came with it.

Harris bowled like a god in England 6 months previously, had Michael Clarke not indulged in a bit of time wasting at the Oval you were looking at a 4-0 loss.

Nobody loves Harris more than me on this forum, Top_Cat excepted. But without Johnson then 5-0 simply does not happen.

 

[Burgey]

I didn't need Johnson to remind me of that tbh. I witnessed this as a kid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQlpeSLWC0g

Can't believe mark Waugh missed that leg stump half volley first ball

 

[Xuhaib]

the issue with England in the 90's was they had some very good cricketers but they were made to carry some absolute garbage sometimes even 4-5 off 11 were just making the numbers even if the other 6-7 were decent. The reason Hussain immediately had success when he took over was he started extracting more out of support players like Bucther, Cork, Giles, White.

 

[Heboric]

the issue with England in the 90's was they had some very good cricketers but they were made to carry some absolute garbage sometimes even 4-5 off 11 were just making the numbers even if the other 6-7 were decent. The reason Hussain immediately had success when he took over was he started extracting more out of support players like Bucther, Cork, Giles, White.

Following on from this, did England in the 90's ever get whitewashed.

I often hear jokingly about England in the 90's (apparently there was a documentary about it). But from the 2000's they have been whitewshed a couple of times. So how bad were they in the 90's...

 

[Black_Warrior]

Can't believe mark Waugh missed that leg stump half volley first ball

Yeah because pace is pace..too quick too fast for the Waugh brothers.

 

[vcs]

Following on from this, did England in the 90's ever get whitewashed.

I often hear jokingly about England in the 90's (apparently there was a documentary about it). But from the 2000's they have been whitewshed a couple of times. So how bad were they in the 90's...

Yep, in India in '93.

 

[Black_Warrior]

That's a good point actually. As bad as England were in the 90s and as wide the gulf was between England and Australia, they always managed to win a test in the 90s and lose 1-4. The side of the noughties was superior in every way, won the Ashes a few times including away, yet lose 0-5 twice.

 

[mr_mister]

And they won in 01 too with 90s players

 

[mr_mister]

This further proves my point of course

 

[vcs]

England were terrible in the '90s.. they've certainly improved steadily in this millenium with a few blips here and there. Similar story to India actually. Number of series whitewashes doesn't really prove anything.

 

[Furball]

That's a good point actually. As bad as England were in the 90s and as wide the gulf was between England and Australia, they always managed to win a test in the 90s and lose 1-4. The side of the noughties was superior in every way, won the Ashes a few times including away, yet lose 0-5 twice.

00s Australia > 90s Australia

 

[vic_orthdox]

Assuming the conversation has moved on, but England had the core of a decent side during the 1990s, I think the fact that quite a number of those players either missed a lot, or carried, through injuries really hit them harder than people talk about when they look back.

Fraser, Gough, Caddick, Atherton, Headley all had decent long term injuries in the period in question. Nasser with his glass fingers too, Thorpe's back and personal issues (although they might have been more in the 2000s?).

 

[vic_orthdox]

MSD being a defensive captain is pretty accurate, but that doesn't make him bad or 'worse'.

Keep in mind he played in the T20 era, his preference for building pressure and squeezing runs worked quite well for a long while. He struggled when the bowlers struggled to give him the same control; and I'm not sure whether or not a more aggressive captain would have gotten more out of the attack in those situations. And yea he had his bad moments - let the game drift now and then, an obsession with the short ball - but no captain is ever perfect.

Reckon he captained, or at least was brought into Test cricket, during a period where India's wickets were as flat as they've been while I've been watching cricket. Had to wait until second half of Day 4 for the wicket to start deteriorating.

 

[vic_orthdox]

He's terrible. It isn't because he didn't play test cricket, he played Shield and in any event there's plenty of blokes on here who haven't played anything like FC cricket whose thoughts on the game are nuanced and imo exceptional. It's just that he tries so hard. I'm actually having a little vomit in my mouth here thinking about him commentating again this summer.

He has his persona - works well on radio, think it's more of a case of Channel Nine sport department pushing the broadcast to be more like what he presents, than anything else.

 

[Black_Warrior]

00s Australia > 90s Australia

And still England with a worse side managed a win each in 2001 and 2002.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah because pace is pace..too quick too fast for the Waugh brothers.

He was probably asleep whilst waiting to bat tbh. Apparently he used to do that quite a bit. I can't imagine falling asleep waiting to bat, except for when I was in my early 20s and slept at the ground after getting on the squirt the night before

 

[Black_Warrior]

He was probably asleep whilst waiting to bat tbh. Apparently he used to do that quite a bit. I can't imagine falling asleep waiting to bat, except for when I was in my early 20s and slept at the ground after getting on the squirt the night before

Well good him for him..he could sleep all he wanted after that series. That was the end of him as a test batsman

 

[Burgey]

He was well and truly on the decline wasn't he? I don't know if he ever did well in SL (where I think that test was - I can't recall). He got four ducks in a row in one series there, they were calling him Audi