Why do England struggle to produce undisputedly great players?

[grecian]

You're crazy man!

Kp averaged well below 50 in an age that had players like Kallis abd Sanga averaging well above.

He and Freddie are actually the epitome of what we're talking about, at times they did both look World-class, but overall in their career they can't be considered "greats", same with Cook, no matter how many records he breaks, but I think he's a better shout than those 2. Underwood and Swann aren't bad shouts, but Swann well below the likes of Warne and Murali.

underwood probably a bit over-looked, performance-wise probably the best of his time, though Indians may argue. Willis was hot-and-cold, and never anywhere near the best of his time, could name 10 fast bowlers ahead of him in the 70s and 80s. Bit like Gough.

I loved Stewart, but again hard to put him in. May have been different if he'd never had the gloves.

Our last great player was Beefy, and even he was just above average for half his career, but he somehow still performed.

 

[91Jmay]

Cook's record as an opener stands up with many of the greats. Think he is one.

 

[Coronis]

Cook's record as an opener stands up with many of the greats. Think he is one.

Just because he's done the best in an era of mediocre openers doesn't make him great.

 

[Stace]

Kp averaged well below 50 in an age that had players like Kallis abd Sanga averaging well above.

He and Freddie are actually the epitome of what we're talking about, at times they did both look World-class, but overall in their career they can't be considered "greats", same with Cook, no matter how many records he breaks, but I think he's a better shout than those 2. Underwood and Swann aren't bad shouts, but Swann well below the likes of Warne and Murali.

underwood probably a bit over-looked, performance-wise probably the best of his time, though Indians may argue. Willis was hot-and-cold, and never anywhere near the best of his time, could name 10 fast bowlers ahead of him in the 70s and 80s. Bit like Gough.

I loved Stewart, but again hard to put him in. May have been different if he'd never had the gloves.

Our last great player was Beefy, and even he was just above average for half his career, but he somehow still performed.

Freddie could have been an ODI great had he been in a better team, he was a world class bowler with brilliant fast Yorkers and 48 matches batting at no.5 averaging 46 with a SR of 94. I reckon if he was given consistency batting at 5 and had better players around him to give him a chance at the WC then he would be considered an ODI ATG.

 

[ImpatientLime]

flintoff is an odi great.

 

[Stace]

flintoff is an odi great.

I don't think that's accepted worldwide is it?

 

[GIMH]

I don't think that's accepted worldwide is it?

It's accepted on CW.

 

[Stace]

It's accepted on CW.

Good good.

 

[Adders]

How has Jimmy Anderson not been mentioned in this thread??

Only Steyn has been better in this current generation of fast bowlers and he is a legitimate ATG. I don't see how Jimmy can not be considered an "undisputedly great player"

 

[grecian]

How has Jimmy Anderson not been mentioned in this thread??

Only Steyn has been better in this current generation of fast bowlers and he is a legitimate ATG. I don't see how Jimmy can not be considered an "undisputedly great player"

Bollocks, I love Jimmeh, but he averages just under 30, no way is he an ATG.

Philander has done okay too.

 

[Adders]

I didn't say he was an "ATG" and that is not the brief for this thread either.

You can be an undisputedly great player without making it into an ATG side.........IMO anyway. Good call on Philander though, hard to go past his numbers.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

How has Jimmy Anderson not been mentioned in this thread??

Only Steyn has been better in this current generation of fast bowlers and he is a legitimate ATG. I don't see how Jimmy can not be considered an "undisputedly great player"

Well it's a good point you raise about Jimmeh. He has bowled well against everyone but has had some difficult patches in his career. He's similar in that fashion to Mitch Johnson. Johnson at his best was the best bowler in the world. Jimmeh could probably say the same. Hard to say either are better than Steyn as overall bowlers, however the purple patch for Jimmy and MJ would put them at the top.
So undisputedly good player for the past few years, I think so

 

[Black_Warrior]

Are you coming to Sydney? Didn't think you were based in Australia. Areyou on tour? There's a magnificent row of strip clubs in Melbourne down the Etihad end of town ftr

Lol thanks.. I'll check them out.. I am considering the third test but here's the problem.. at least with MCG, they would possibly be heading into it 0-1 giving me hope for a few days that they can turn it around..but then the 2nd test curse (Hobart 99, Sydney 2010) will destroy me by 31st Dec and then I would be too broken to go and witness 0-3

 

[TheJediBrah]

How has Jimmy Anderson not been mentioned in this thread??

Only Steyn has been better in this current generation of fast bowlers and he is a legitimate ATG. I don't see how Jimmy can not be considered an "undisputedly great player"

I can understand why you'd think this, I've thought the same thing watching him bowl in swinging conditions. He looks unplayable at times. But there's a lot of times where his bowling is toothless and there's no way you can compare Jimmy Anderson to the dozens of bowlers with low-20s averages

Maybe he gets points for longevity though

 

[Red]

What's the criteria for "great" here though?

Jimmy Anderson is never gonna make an English ATG XI ahead of Trueman, Barnes, Larwood, Snow, Willis, Tyson, Bedser.

But imo he's a great cricketer. He'd play in any country's test XI (perhaps bar the WIs in the late 70s or 80s) anytime in history. To me that's what makes a great player.

 

[Burgey]

Lol thanks.. I'll check them out.. I am considering the third test but here's the problem.. at least with MCG, they would possibly be heading into it 0-1 giving me hope for a few days that they can turn it around..but then the 2nd test curse (Hobart 99, Sydney 2010) will destroy me by 31st Dec and then I would be too broken to go and witness 0-3

Mate I'd hate your only experience of Australia to be Melbourne. That would be awful. Jono is from there ffs.

 

[GIMH]

Bollocks, I love Jimmeh, but he averages just under 30, no way is he an ATG.

Philander has done okay too.

You said Swann was a good shout, can't see how you can champion him and talk Jimmy down. If Anderson was picked at the stage of his career that Swann was his average would be much lower. Cbf to look it up but I would guess mid-20s

 

[Adders]

I can understand why you'd think this, I've thought the same thing watching him bowl in swinging conditions. He looks unplayable at times. But there's a lot of times where his bowling is toothless and there's no way you can compare Jimmy Anderson to the dozens of bowlers with low-20s averages

Maybe he gets points for longevity though

Yeah that's fair enough and I'm not comparing him to the bowlers averaging low 20's. I'm not sure where Jimmy would rank amongst bowlers of all time without spending some time thinking about it, but lets just say for arguments sake he's around No 25 (and I just pulled that figure out my arse......no idea how close to accurate it is) but that in its self makes him a great IMO. Not an ATG.....far from it, but a great of the game nonetheless and fits the brief of this thread IMO

This is quite possibly my bias here but I also don't think you can look at Jimmy's average and judge him as a bowler by that. We all know he had a very ordinary start to his career but everyone not named Viriya also knows you have to look beyond the stats. Look at his performance in India 2012 for eg........he was outstanding and Dhoni himself stated he was the difference between the 2 sides. Yet his stats say 12 wickets at over 30.........nothing remarkable about that but anyone that watched the series would know he was exceptional.

I reckon Red Hill has nailed it for the criteria where discussing here.

 

[FBU]

I think Anderson will always be a very good bowler, never a great or ATG. Since 2010 his average has been 25.19. Amazing how many Tests the others have played compared to Broad and Anderson.
Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Adders]

I think Anderson will always be a very good bowler, never a great or ATG.

Well I guess we need to nail down what the definition of "great" is. As I said I'm 100% in agreement with what Red Hill said........how do you see it?