CW chooses the second greatest batsman ever redux, 100 men from 5 eras whittled to 1

[watson]

I've no doubt that had he wanted to Viv could have batted like the proverbial spinster defending her virginity and saved the odd Test, but in truth he just didn't bat like that

Delhi 1987

Yeah, Viv's version of 'saving' a Test match was to score 109 not out off only 111 balls with his side under pressure at 4/111 chasing 276 to win.

1st Test: India v West Indies at Delhi, Nov 25-29, 1987 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[OverratedSanity]

Granted, but the bigger point for me is AB's been almost as far ahead of his contemporaries as Viv was in his time

No way imo.

 

[Zinzan]

I did say 'almost' and looking at ODI stats for the last 10 years (pretty much ABs career), he's averaged 57 with a SR of 101 and the closest to him is probably Kohli or Dhoni both averaging 51 with SRs around 89.

Now to Viv's era, 1975-91, he averaged 47 @ 90 & the closest to him was Zaheer Abbas averaging the same and striking at 84.

Kind of similar gap to 2nd best respectively isn't it?

Then again, your 'no way imo' is a difficult argument to overcome.

 

[weldone]

Tendulkar
Sobers
Hobbs

 

[OverratedSanity]

I did say 'almost' and looking at ODI stats for the last 10 years (pretty much ABs career), he's averaged 57 with a SR of 101 and the closest to him is probably Kohli or Dhoni both averaging 51 with SRs around 89.

Now to Viv's era, 1975-91, he averaged 47 @ 90 & the closest to him was Zaheer Abbas averaging the same and striking at 84.

Kind of similar gap to 2nd best respectively isn't it?

Then again, your 'no way imo' is a difficult argument to overcome.

Thats because you're comparing them to the next best. In Viv's time, although there were a couple of outliers like himself and Abbas, the mean was far below in terms of scoring rate. You were considered a good batsman even if you struck at 65. Viv was basically 50% ahead of that.

 

[Coronis]

Aggressive players turn a potential match-saving innings into match-winning knocks.

Not sure if thats a way (long match-saving innings) to judge Viv or for that matter any aggressive batsman just like how we cannot judge players like Boycott or Chanders or Dravid by their ability to score quickly when needed.

Yes AB (30 odd off 220 balls) has shown that aggressive batsmen can be competent to see off situations where they fight it out for a draw but then AB isn't in the same league as Lara or Viv when it comes to Test Cricket.

Maybe this calls for another debate...Viv has shown the same level of aggression in both formats whereas AB is just as good as Viv in ODIs but fails to replicate the same dominance in test cricket. Is it because he tends to hold back his aggression?

Chanders does have that 100 off 69 balls against Australia in 2003. To be fair, Australia still won the match, and didn't have their best bowlers (Warne, McGrath) in the side. But imo coming in at 4/47 and scoring 100 in less than 70 balls against Gillespie, Lee, Bichel, Hogg and MacGill isn't bad for a change of pace.

 

[Zinzan]

Thats because you're comparing them to the next best. In Viv's time, although there were a couple of outliers like himself and Abbas, the mean was far below in terms of scoring rate. You were considered a good batsman even if you struck at 65. Viv was basically 50% ahead of that.

The average SR for a top 6 bat in Richard's time was probably about 67 and in AB's I'm guessing would average out to about 84 in the last 10 years (intuitively), so yeah he would be ahead by a higher percentage... but it would be closer to 30 than 50% ahead, and AB around 20%.

I do think it's probably more relevant to look at ODI comparisons from about 1980 onwards, because the 70s were all over the place in terms of ODIs, players really didn't play enough in similar conditions for a decent sample set to be established.

Again Viv is ahead, but it's getting close and another few years of AB dominating the way he has.....

 

[ankitj]

No way imo.

Thats because you're comparing them to the next best. In Viv's time, although there were a couple of outliers like himself and Abbas, the mean was far below in terms of scoring rate. You were considered a good batsman even if you struck at 65. Viv was basically 50% ahead of that.

Why are *you* worked up over it?

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cri...-tournament-tourney-thread-7.html#post3662801

 

[harsh.ag]

Why are *you* worked up over it?

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cri...-tournament-tourney-thread-7.html#post3662801

 

[Zinzan]

Interesting this, my quick count has it currently at;

Hobbs 12 Sobers 11 Tendulkar 8 Lara 7 & Viv 4

 

[anil1405]

Not strictly on topic but did someone seriously just claim that de Villiers is as good as Viv at ODIs?

I'd certainly put them in the same league. A league of brutally dominant batsmen who demolished and demoralized opponents like no other has ever done. AB is a fraction below Viv overall but then there are certain aspects like the range of strokes where AB stands out. He is a 360 degree player who can play 2-3 different strokes for the same delivery and still look at his dismissive best.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Why are *you* worked up over it?

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cri...-tournament-tourney-thread-7.html#post3662801

Changed my mind when i was going through Viv's innings and found one from 1985 in which he smacked 80 in 39 balls against Imran, Wasim and Qadir. Some of the stuff he did would be bonkers today, let alone 30 years ago.

 

[Zinzan]

Changed my mind when i was going through Viv's innings and found one from 1985 in which he smacked 80 in 39 balls against Imran, Wasim and Qadir. Some of the stuff he did would be bonkers today, let alone 30 years ago.

Lol, we have some good trainspotters here. That was a beauty from ankitj.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah, pretty good.

He dug through the archives though. Lol that kid.

 

[ankitj]

I am the CW equivalent of those Twitter trolls who screenshot old tweets and crash the party of trigger happy Twitter users

 

[viriya]

Garry Sobers
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara

 

[nick-o]

Interesting this, my quick count has it currently at;

Hobbs 12 Sobers 11 Tendulkar 8 Lara 7 & Viv 4

Counting maybe not one of your strongest suits? Sobers is way out ahead.

Anyway

Hobbs
Sobers
Richards

 

[viriya]

I'd certainly put them in the same league. A league of brutally dominant batsmen who demolished and demoralized opponents like no other has ever done. AB is a fraction below Viv overall but then there are certain aspects like the range of strokes where AB stands out. He is a 360 degree player who can play 2-3 different strokes for the same delivery and still look at his dismissive best.

I've considered AB to be slightly ahead of Viv as ODI goat ever since he hit the fastest ton. In many ways he is as dominant compared to his peers as Viv was.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I've considered AB to be slightly ahead of Viv as ODI goat ever since he hit the fastest ton. In many ways he is as dominant compared to his peers as Viv was.

No way imo

 

[watson]

No way imo

In this particular case it's not necessary to add 'imo'.