***Official*** New Zealand in India 2016

[Zinzan]

That sentence could just as easily read. Was Guptill better than Athlai? Yeah. Were either very good? Nah. So it doesn't really say much.

If I was to give adjusted averages based on eras, bowling attacks faced, the ability to take the shine off the new ball, which is the biggest thing Edgar had over Guptill, I'd adjust Edgar's average to about 35-37 and Guptill's to about 23-25.

 

[Athlai]

Guppy may actually have some more Test tons if he got to play at Eden Park tbf.

 

[hendrix]

Ahh Staap....Mate, very very different eras. Edgar played 25 of his 39 test vs. Eng and Aust between 1978-1986, and just 3 innings vs. the then minnows Sri Lanka.

He scored 161 against an attack of Lillee, Thomson, Alderman in 1982 which lead us to a 5 wicket victory and averaged 60, including 127 vs. that great Windies side that toured here in 1980 we managed to draw the series with.

Classic example of when overall statistics do lie. Edgar >>>>>>> Guptill the test opener. It's not even a contest.

I'm certainly inclined to agree with you.

I will sorta mention that Steyn-Philander-Rabada and to a lesser extent some of the Aussie and English bowling attacks Guptill has faced have been handy. But he's also played a huge number of games against relatively weak bowling attacks and still failed.

 

[Zinzan]

Just like had happened with Fulton a few years back when he scored that century in each innings against England, Guptil's hundred against that pretty ordinary Lankan attack last year set us back about 4-5 tests in terms of giving another potential Test opener a taste.

 

[Binkley]

It always comes back to "who is the alternative?" though. With all due respect to Jeet Raval, who has forged a good record on roads, there aren't too many openers around challenging Guptill for his place in the team.

 

[Daemon]

It always comes back to "who is the alternative?" though. With all due respect to Jeet Raval, who has forged a good record on roads, there aren't too many openers around challenging Guptill for his place in the team.

Wagner

 

[Athlai]

It always comes back to "who is the alternative?" though. With all due respect to Jeet Raval, who has forged a good record on roads, there aren't too many openers around challenging Guptill for his place in the team.

Has been fairly hard going for Latham as well. If you remove that Zimbabwe tour they both average under 30 (29.37 TL and 25.35 MG) since last summer, and both of them made runs against SL. Take out SL and it drops to 23 for Latham and 13 for Guptill.

Not exactly like it's been the easiest time for runs for any NZer against Australia and South Africa. We all rate Latham as our best opener in a while and he bloody made 8 runs against South Africa.

 

[OverratedSanity]

23 is still far better than 13 though. One is a poor run of form. The other is Walsh-esque.

Latham was extremely unlucky on the SA tour really. An iffy decision and that one that bounced much more than expected. Should've dropped his wrists, but even that's harsh.

 

[Zinzan]

Has been fairly hard going for Latham as well. If you remove that Zimbabwe tour they both average under 30 (29.37 TL and 25.35 MG) since last summer, and both of them made runs against SL. Take out SL and it drops to 23 for Latham and 13 for Guptill.

Not exactly like it's been the easiest time for runs for any NZer against Australia and South Africa. We all rate Latham as our best opener in a while and he bloody made 8 runs against South Africa.

I don't think we need stats to see Latham is magnitudes better as a Test opener than Guppy.

 

[cnerd123]

NZ should play Southee/Boult/WAGner with two other bowling options IMO. If they lack a potent spin option, they could be in for long days on the field, and playing only 4 bowling options -one of which is a Bracewell or a mediocre spinner- will be suicide.

Are CoriAnderson or Neesham fit? A guy like Todd Astle could actually be useful. All NZ really need is an accurate spinner with decent flight - India have been atrocious at playing slow straight bowling as of recently. Santner could actually be a legitimate threat. Craig and Sodhi's lack of control makes them both poor selections, even tho either one of them could suddenly turn up one day and bag a cheap fiver.

Does Raval really bat like a subcontinental batsman? If so, he could be worth a look in. Otherwise, just stick with Guppy.

 

[hendrix]

It always comes back to "who is the alternative?" though. With all due respect to Jeet Raval, who has forged a good record on roads, there aren't too many openers around challenging Guptill for his place in the team.

Honestly, I think they've been very conservative with Raval. He could quite arguably have been picked well before Latham.

He's been playing first class cricket since 2009 and has averaged over 40 for 5 straight seasons.

 

[hendrix]

Does Raval really bat like a subcontinental batsman? If so, he could be worth a look in. Otherwise, just stick with Guppy.

No idea how he bats except that he's good off his pads, which Athlai seems to think is a bad thing...

Sorry but Guptill is un-selectable. It is simply beyond comprehension for him to play another test. There are other openers and other middle order batsmen who deserve to have their shot in the squad.

 

[Athlai]

Latham is magnitudes better than ANY option we've had since Richardson (outside of McCullum's temporary foray from the top).

Guptill is just the best spud we have to fill that role, and when we watch as that spud gets eaten alive by South Africa and Australia we don't really get very surprised. Is it Raval's turn? Probably. Will Guptill go on tour too? Probably.

The difference with Guptill has always been that he is one of the greatest we've ever had in ODIs and there is that constant and perhaps somewhat naive thought that a man who isn't 30 years old yet may be able to find that gear where some of that skill will translate to the red ball game. It certainly seems to at the domestic level.

If we had another Latham waiting in the wings, he'd have been dropped. But Guptill's peers in that revolving door position are the likes of Cumming, Rutherford, McIntosh, How, Fulton, Flynn, Bell, Redmond, Nicol and Papps. We could argue till the cows came home if one of those spuds was robbed of their chance to shine, Guptill has certain been given one and hasn't taken advantage of the opportunities he has been afforded.

So now we turn back to the domestic scene for the next hopeful that may rise above the mediocrity, trying to ignore the fact that Luke Woodcock finished in the top 10 run scorers in the domestic scene despite opening the whole season for the Firebirds. Trying to ignore that Raval's stellar average for Auckland is still actually lower than Guptill's was. Trying to ignore that last year four of the top 7 leading wicket takers were spinners and of quicks to test the mettle of our openers only Andrew Ellis managed to average under 20 of blokes to take more than 15 wickets.

The merry go round is about to start spinning again, strap on your seatbelts boys.

 

[SteveNZ]

It always comes back to "who is the alternative?" though. With all due respect to Jeet Raval, who has forged a good record on roads, there aren't too many openers around challenging Guptill for his place in the team.

I've agreed with that in the past...but when you've seen such a massive sample size for Gup opening and it's just plainly obvious that he's not fit to be a Test opener, you need to look at the next best alternative. That's Jeet. I'm not sure he'll be a success either but it's time to have a look. If Gup was averaging 30-odd and looking okay, you might persist on the basis that those sort of numbers are the best we can hope for. But he just looks so hopelessly at sea against good attacks, getting out the same way time and again.

I'm with Athlai, I don't see how you can possibly justify selecting him for the 1st Test.

 

[cnerd123]

India vs. Ashwin/Jadeja/Mishra is an incredibly cruel place to debut a newcomer tho.

If the opener you replace Guppy with can offer something with the ball (Astle), or has a style that suits the conditions (Raval?), then perhaps. But otherwise I really wouldn't do it.

 

[Athlai]

India vs. Ashwin/Jadeja/Mishra is an incredibly cruel place to debut a newcomer tho.

If the opener you replace Guppy with can offer something with the ball (Astle), or has a style that suits the conditions (Raval?), then perhaps. But otherwise I really wouldn't do it.

Astle doesn't open anymore. He'd bat 8.

 

[hendrix]

India vs. Ashwin/Jadeja/Mishra is an incredibly cruel place to debut a newcomer tho.

If the opener you replace Guppy with can offer something with the ball (Astle), or has a style that suits the conditions (Raval?), then perhaps. But otherwise I really wouldn't do it.

Firstly, Astle is not in contention. He's a reverse Mark Richardson - spin bowling allrounder who used to open. We would need McCullum back as captain for it to happen.

Secondly, I don't understand this attitude. This is test cricket. It isn't easy, and it shouldn't be. Debuting against Zimbabwe or Bangladesh is a pipe dream. All of the top teams should have bowling attacks that can test batsmen.

And finally, not that it particularly matters, but Jeet grew up in India and only moved here in his late teens. Didn't even speak English.

 

[cnerd123]

Growing up in India doesn't necessarily mean he currently bats in a manner that would suit those conditions.

Sure he'd probably adapt to the climate and the food and the hindi banter on the field; but does he have the game to score more runs than Guppy would?

 

[OverratedSanity]

If he can't average 13, New Zealand may as well give up playing cricket. Kane and Ross can go to England.

 

[Athlai]

If he can't average 13, New Zealand may as well give up playing cricket. Kane and Ross can go to England.

I honestly think no New Zealand specialist opener aside from Latham would average above 13 in South Africa in the recent conditions. None. Zero. Zilch. Though I doubt many openers from countries with a lot more depth than ours would be enjoying facing Philander, Steyn and Rabada (if they last that long) in those conditions.