*Official* Pakistan in England and Ireland 2016

[Zinzan]

Way too close to stick my neck out, unless I was absolutely forced to pick one and then I'd still probably be doubting my decision afterwards.

 

[hendrix]

Way too close to stick my neck out, unless I was absolutely forced to pick one and then I'd still probably be doubting my decision afterwards.

Srsbusiness, I wouldn't want to risk being wrong on an internet forum either...

But really if you hold this view I don't get why you have a problem with others claiming England or Pak as number 1.

 

[Zinzan]

But really if you hold this view I don't get why you have a problem with others claiming England or Pak as number 1.

Don't have a problem with either of those claims. You need to read more carefully. I specifically took issue with the two claims "England are probably the world's best side on their day" which I disagree with and "No doubt Pakistan are the best team in the world at the moment', when I think there's a decent amount of doubt. Can you not see the difference between that and stating it's a damn close thing?

 

[Zinzan]

Srsbusiness, I wouldn't want to risk being wrong on an internet forum either...

Well you shouldn't have talked Tommy Latham up as a white-ball batting prospect as early as you did then

 

[straw man]

Congrats Pakistan - that's a great test series performance.

While them being the best side in the world right now is a difficult debate, I think they are definitely the least-worst all-conditions top side at the moment, if that makes sense.

 

[vcs]

Pakistan haven't been tested anywhere near enough away from home to be able to make that statement. Yes, it's a great achievement to draw in England, but let's wait to see how they do in Australia, NZ and South Africa.

 

[straw man]

Now I've said that, they'll probably go stink up the joint in Australia, though who hasn't.

 

[straw man]

Pakistan haven't been tested anywhere near enough away from home to be able to make that statement. Yes, it's a great achievement to draw in England, but let's wait to see how they do in Australia, NZ and South Africa.

Unless they go back to bad-old Pakistan and lose team unity etc, they should be able to compete at the very least anywhere in the world including those places, which is more than pretty much any other team right now can say.

 

[FBU]

Next England team

1 Cook
2 Hameed
3 Borthwick
4 Root
5 Ali
6 Stokes
7 Bairstow
8 Woakes
9 Broad
10 Finn
11 Anderson

 

[Zinzan]

Next England team

1 Cook
2 Hameed
3 Borthwick
4 Root
5 Ali
6 Stokes
7 Bairstow
8 Woakes
9 Broad
10 Finn
11 Anderson

Don't know much about Hameed nor Borthwick, but yeah Hales & Vince don't look particularly stable at the top.

Gary Ballance is a weird one for me, because I swear every time I've seen him bat, he's looked god-awful, but when I don't he seems to score runs & he does have a good record, so can only think that's a bit of a coincidence. The way Boult toyed with him last year in particular.

I do like the strength of that middle order though, but my only question would be whether Ali would be able to play his natural game with the same freedom at number 5, as opposed to 7-8 where he's batted previously. It does make a psychological difference.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Er, no it couldn't.

Your statement about 'their day' is certainly true about England but just as true for India, Pakistan and Australia today.

 

[morgieb]

'Lower order should apply icing, not bake cake' - Cook | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

Alastair Cook - reads CW?

 

[Black_Warrior]

I think right now, the 15th of August 2016, I don't have a problem saying Pakistan is the best in the world.

It's not by much, and it's not undisputed, but I think it's true.

They've tied with England at home, dismantled Australia, tied with South Africa (at the beginning of their decline) and have enough truly test standard players that it's not a fluke.

Also, we have to adapt with the times. In era of such competitive teams and no dominant side, the idea of an 'undisputed best team' is irrelevant. It's all a matter of right conditions and right timing which includes form, fitness, slip catching - the inches.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Makes for fascinating debate.

It's never a debate with Furball because the moment you challenge or disagree with him, he resorts to name calling and abuses.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Next England team

1 Cook
2 Hameed
3 Borthwick
4 Root
5 Ali
6 Stokes
7 Bairstow
8 Woakes
9 Broad
10 Finn
11 Anderson

For the SC tours? You're going to play 4 seamers with Moeen Ali has frontline spinner in India?

 

[Prince EWS]

Pakistan haven't been tested anywhere near enough away from home to be able to make that statement. Yes, it's a great achievement to draw in England, but let's wait to see how they do in Australia, NZ and South Africa.

The thing is, it's entirely possible for them to lose in all those places and still be the best team in the world. Which teams would you not expect to lose away series against three opposition?

 

[Black_Warrior]

The thing is, it's entirely possible for them to lose in all those places and still be the best team in the world. Which teams would you not expect to lose away series against three opposition?

This is a conversation that is going to repeat itself countless times with no 'undisputed' best team.
We are always going to say 'but they didn't win in A, B or C'

Around 2014, Australia were talked up as the best team for having won in South Africa, despite having nothing to show in Asia. Ultimately in these times, it's a matter of the present moment.
Come Novemer-December when Khawaja, Vogues and Warner are blasting 250s against South Africa and Pakistan on roads and batting out the opposition ala NZ 2015, we would be talking Australia up as number 1 again..until they tour India come next February.

 

[Zinzan]

The thing is, it's entirely possible for them to lose in all those places and still be the best team in the world. Which teams would you not expect to lose away series against three opposition?

Australia (even though though they're one of those opposition teams you refer to ), Gave NZ an absolute toweling in our own backyard only 6 months ago and they always seem to play well in SA, but obviously they have their own touring issues.

 

[Prince EWS]

Australia (even though though they're one of those opposition teams you refer to ), Gave NZ an absolute toweling in our own backyard only 6 months ago and they always seem to play well in SA, but obviously they have their own touring issues.

Yeah, I meant three opposition in general rather those three opposition specifically. Australia would definitely lose in India and the UAE at the moment, and they literally are losing to Sri Lanka right now, so that's three right there. Losing away series to three teams doesn't preclude you if you win all your home series, because I dare say every other side would be up against it on at least three tours as well.

 

[Black_Warrior]

It's really about which teams can adapt where. I think Indian batsmen can adapt extremely well to pace and bounce, which is they have played so well on their last two tours there. But their bowlers not so much. Australia generally don't have a problem with pace and bounce, same with South Africa which explains why they have won in each other's backyards when everyone else has failed.

South Africa, England and New Zealand (to an extent) over the last few years have demonstrated the ability to adapt better than Australia in Asian conditions (both UAE and SC).

It then comes down to our collective memory and how far we are willing to go back. After the two away tours last year where England played good cricket in UAE and won in South Africa, it was only natural for people to talk them up.

If Australia beat South Africa and Pakistan comprehensively this summer, their Sri Lankan humiliation will be forgotten and they will be talked up again.

India are unlikely to lose a series the entire season so they would most likely be ranked number 1 but people would grumble "but they haven't won outside".

2018 would be a crucial year for Kohli's India with tours of England and Australia. Dhoni's India was considered an excellent test side until 2011 and whether the likes of Ashwin, Shami, Bhuvi develop and adapt in those conditions or not will determine the outcome.

Similarly, Pakistani batsmen like Azhar Ali, Shafiq and Sami Aslam will have to show tremendous growth and development to perform in two away tough tours and then how well Pakistan adapt after the eventual departure of Misbah and Younis will go a long way in shaping their future as a test team.