The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[OverratedSanity]

Definitely Grace imo

 

[Red]

why does it matter for these threads? Can't we assume they're at their peak with bat and ball when playing in this hypothetical situation


If we have to him at one point in his career I'll take 1994 where he took 15 wickets @ 15 and hit 677 runs @ 67


sounds like a test AR at the peak of his powers to me and he basically 30 by then so well into his career

Not that it particularly matters because it's always hypothetical, but I imagine players will play at a level that they were able to demonstrate over a considerable period of time. There was never a time when Steve Waugh was a great all rounder for a considerable time in tests. His bowling was handy early, and kept him in the as you mention, but then in 1989 he went nuts in England and people realised what a good bat he was. He slumped and then was dropped for Mark etc, but when he came back (apart from 94 in a few tests that you mentioned) he was never really an all rounder.

Don't get me wrong, I think SWaugh was a very good bowler. But his back wouldn't allow him to bowl much later in his career and he never got to show how valuable he could've been as a test AR. I rate his bowling but over his career he wasn't really an AR for the majority.

 

[Prince EWS]

Definitely Grace imo

Yeah I remember when I got my nerd on and tried to look into this. I came to the conclusion that Grace was quite arguably as successful as or even more successful than Bradman on batting alone in the context of all First Class cricket.. and on top of that he took over 2000 wickets. It has to be Grace IMO.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah I made a post about him recently where I dug up his statistics for a 10-15 year stretch where he was so far ahead if every other batsman it was absurd. Not just in terms of average, but the sheer volume of his run scoring output. He had like three quarters of all fc hundreds scored for a decade long period.

And then there's his bowling obviously.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yeah I made a post about him recently where I dug up his statistics for a 10-15 year stretch where he was so far ahead if every other batsman it was absurd. Not just in terms if average, but the sheer volume if his run scoring output. He had like three quarters of all fc hundreds scored for a decade long period.

And then there's his bowling obviously.

Even in terms of average relative to his peers.. if you standardised the county season averages in the same way I standardised Test averages in my big thread on that, Grace had a standardised average of 120+ over a ten year period. Nuts.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Found it.

Pretty decent run from Grace here :

Crazy stuff. It's kinda annoying how cricketing n00bs look at his career fc average and go "meh", but simultaneously I think it's cool that the crazy nature of his numbers require a little bit of research.

 

[Red]

Bit of a side note but he took a lot more catches than most (apart from Pooley who was a keeper).

 

[Zinzan]

Found it.



Crazy stuff. It's kinda annoying how cricketing n00bs look at his career fc average and go "meh", but simultaneously I think it's cool that the crazy nature of his numbers require a little bit of research.

Bejeebers, that's awesome. Must have pulled up stiff in 1868.

Aged between 20 - 28 in that period, the beard can't have been quite as impressive.

 

[Zinzan]

Lol the scorecard from the Australians vs Auckland in 1896 The Home of CricketArchive

 

[Howe_zat]

There's an idea that Grace 'normalised' scoring a first class hundred. It used to be a big event, then Grace showed it could be what a batsman aims for every time. Which sounds reasonable until you compare it to any other sport. Imagine a footballer who 'normalised' scoring a hat trick and started doing it 10 times a season. That's the kind of craziness we're talking about.

 

[Furball]

There's an idea that Grace 'normalised' scoring a first class hundred. It used to be a big event, then Grace showed it could be what a batsman aims for every time. Which sounds reasonable until you compare it to any other sport. Imagine a footballer who 'normalised' scoring a hat trick and started doing it 10 times a season. That's the kind of craziness we're talking about.

 

[Red]

Lol the scorecard from the Australians vs Auckland in 1896 The Home of CricketArchive

Touring national teams often played against a ridiculous amount of opponents from local teams. Up to 22.

 

[a massive zebra]

Touring national teams often played against a ridiculous amount of opponents from local teams. Up to 22.

Please note that all members of the minor team would not just bat, but also take the field. In 1876, W.G. Grace made 400 not out for United South XI against Twenty-Two of Grimsby, with 22 men in the field throughout his innings.

This was simply a warm-up for the most prolific trio of innings ever made in first class cricket. as he followed this exhibition with 344 for Gloucestershire against Kent at Canterbury, 177 against Notts at Clifton, and, with the visiting Yorkshire players now expecting him to be exhausted, 318 not out against them at Cheltenham.

Even by Bradmanesque standards, that really is some superhuman stamina and concentration.

 

[a massive zebra]

Bejeebers, that's awesome. Must have pulled up stiff in 1868.

Aged between 20 - 28 in that period, the beard can't have been quite as impressive.

Here is W.G. in 1872, aged 24:

So a fairly impressive beard for a 24 year old, but not quite as pronounced as the popular image of later years.

Even as a teenager he had began to show signs of his follical potential. In the picture below, W.G. is the youngster at the extreme left in the white cap with just the beginnings of a small beard. This photo is from 1867 and W.G. would have been 18 or 19 at the time.

If you really want to see a beardless wonder, here is W.G. in 1863, aged about 15 (the young chap marked 12):

 

[Zinzan]

Use...

code..

 

[AndrewB]

Please note that all members of the minor team would not just bat, but also take the field. In 1876, W.G. Grace made 400 not out for United South XI against Twenty-Two of Grimsby, with 22 men in the field throughout his innings.

This was simply a warm-up for the most prolific trio of innings ever made in first class cricket. as he followed this exhibition with 344 for Gloucestershire against Kent at Canterbury, 177 against Notts at Clifton, and, with the visiting Yorkshire players now expecting him to be exhausted , 318 not out against them at Cheltenham.

Even by Bradmanesque standards, that really is some superhuman stamina and concentration.

The only rival for that is probably Ponsford's run in December 1927: after warming up with 133 against South Australia at the start of the month, he scored 437 against Queensland on 16-17 Dec, 202 & 38 against NSW on 23 & 26 Dec, and 336 against South Australia on 30-31 Dec. 1013 runs in just over 2 weeks.

 

[a massive zebra]

Use...

code..

Thanks, now done.

 

[mr_mister]

those photos are amazing.

****ing hell 160 year old photographs wig me out

 

[Victor Ian]

People like to discount myth. For me it only adds to a player's greatness. If you played enough to have some myths (that very well might not be myths at all) they add to your value. The more I read about Grace the more I am impressed.

I just ran some totals for a ten year stretch from 1869-1978, a few years after Grace had began and had hit his stride. I compared Grace to the totals of the next best 9 each year. So this is NOT How far Grace was ahead of the NEXT best, rather, how far Grace was ahead of the next best 9 batsmen, on average. I have decided the next best 9 represents a good threshold for the great players to get an idea of how far Grace was ahead of the rest. When we look at Bradman we go wow, he was 2 x as good as everyone else. This is not true. He was only 2 times as good as the average upper echelon player. He was not 2 times as good as Sutcliffe, not Headley and only half as good as Hammond in 1933 or 1936. But he was 2 times as good as the next 9 batsman's average most years.

In Batting
Grace - 17566 runs @ 52
Other9 - 7514 @ 25

In Bowling
Grace -1715 wkts @ 13
Other9 - 870 wkts @ 14

Fielding
Grace - 319 catches
BestOther - 394 catches

I should explain the catches. In ten years Grace took 319 catches. The sum of the best OTHER catcher (rather than 9) for each year in that period, including keepers, was 394. In seven of those years the next best catches was also a keeper.
In Grace you had a batsman worth 2 of the other teams best player. He was also a bowler at least as good as the other teams best bowler. He was also a fielder as good as the other teams keeper.

In a vague way, I'm implying that whereas Bradman was worth 2 great players, and Sobers was worth 2 great players, Grace was worth 4. That is something to think about. If only test cricket was alive in Grace's peak years. There would be no debate.

People marvel at Bradman's single mindedness to bat and bat. From accounts, Grace had the same thing, only it extended to bowling and fielding as well.

 

[the big bambino]

agreed.

And in the words of Ian Chappell, "Lille could do everything that McGrath could and he could do it 10 miles quicker."

McGrath could do everything Lillee could but 2 runs a wicket cheaper.