***Official*** Pakistan in New Zealand - T20/ODI series - Jan 2016

[SteveNZ]

Cricket: Black Caps' bowling coach to stand down - Sport - NZ Herald News

Didn't fully buy in to the argument that he was the source of all our bowling woes, but still don't regret his departure that much.

I don't think he'll be missed too much.

NZC need to be smart about the next appointment. It's clear that the remuneration and the amount of time required in that role are not feasible. Why can't we move to a model where the bowling group becomes more self sufficient, with a mentor/coach that doesn't need to be there all the time. In the era of Skype etc, there's absolutely no reason we can't have someone who can commit to the retirement fund of the IPL, and still coach our guys at the suitable moments. That group has Southee and Boult who should be leaders in their own right. Spinners are a different issue who can be worked with in a similar manner by a Mushtaq, Saqlain etc without having to be tinkered and touched every session.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

I was never sold on Mascarenhas either. For one thing, he wasn't a legitimately good bowler at any point (in stark contrast to Bond and Donald).

Secondly, just look at Southee's performances under Bond and compare them to recently.

 

[Bahnz]

I was never sold on Mascarenhas either. For one thing, he wasn't a legitimately good bowler at any point (in stark contrast to Bond and Donald).

Secondly, just look at Southee's performances under Bond and compare them to recently.

Nah, Southee's performances started falling apart under Bond's tenure. He was average in the UAE, against Sri Lanka in 2014 and for pretty much all of the WC apart from that England game. I reckon he's actually looked a lot better this year than he did last season.

 

[NZTailender]

It probably could work with him at #5 going forward. But I'd want a few provisos. One is that it's his position until 2019, unless he was absolutely horrendous for a long period of time. Secondly, that he just doesn't blindly come in at 5 every time. If it's the powerplay, latter overs, a chase where impetus is needed etc, he gets out of the way.

With Anderson, Munro, Neesham whomever at 6 and 7, it does make some sense. We'd just have to concede that it's a work in progress and it's not going to bear fruit right away. BJ is not equipped to be a great #5 right now. He could possibly (only possibly) become one. I'm okay with that because a) he's proven in his career to be adaptable, a great team man etc b) I don't generally care about meaningless ODI series' between WCs (unless it is v the singing canaries across the ditch) and c) there is absolutely nothing else to nurture with the gloves. And consistently being exposed to international cricket may maximise his Test worth.

But still, Latham with the gloves is probably a better move.

I think it boils down to:

If you want a like for like replacement for Ronchi, Watling isn't your man
If you want a like for like replacement for Elliott, Watling is your man (substitute bowling for keeping)

problem is, Elliott is gun and worthy of his position, so you can't really fit Watling in.

Like it was said earlier, Watling 5 with an all-rounder blasting type at 7 if there was to be a 2 man replacement for Ronchi & Elliott would be the way to go. Neesham or Munro the candidates. But with McCullum going it might be worth opening with Latham and having him keep (mind you I think his batting won't be that great) or we ask Guptill to do the Baz roll, shift KW up to #2, Taylor #3 and have Watling #4+, then Elliott, Corey J, Neesham, Santner, Henry, Southee, Boult.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Nah, Southee's performances started falling apart under Bond's tenure. He was average in the UAE, against Sri Lanka in 2014 and for pretty much all of the WC apart from that England game. I reckon he's actually looked a lot better this year than he did last season.

Agree. Although I think Southee bowled better than his figures suggest in UAE

 

[SteveNZ]

I think it boils down to:

If you want a like for like replacement for Ronchi, Watling isn't your man
If you want a like for like replacement for Elliott, Watling is your man (substitute bowling for keeping)

problem is, Elliott is gun and worthy of his position, so you can't really fit Watling in.

Like it was said earlier, Watling 5 with an all-rounder blasting type at 7 if there was to be a 2 man replacement for Ronchi & Elliott would be the way to go. Neesham or Munro the candidates. But with McCullum going it might be worth opening with Latham and having him keep (mind you I think his batting won't be that great) or we ask Guptill to do the Baz roll, shift KW up to #2, Taylor #3 and have Watling #4+, then Elliott, Corey J, Neesham, Santner, Henry, Southee, Boult.

You're right, there's not a particular need for a like for like replacement for Ronchi especially when Elliott goes (bearing in mind he might have a couple of years in him). Your 5/6-9/10 might be Corey, Neesham/Munro, Santner, Southee, Henry - no need for extra hitting power there. Maybe Latham goes down the order? Or maybe BJ does take over the gloves, and as I say it'll be a 2-3 year project if you want him to be effective from 35 overs plus, which is where a 5 should bat. Not interested in a 5 who nurses you through to 200 odd on a bad day, as BJ has in ODI cricket.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

I was never sold on Mascarenhas either. For one thing, he wasn't a legitimately good bowler at any point (in stark contrast to Bond and Donald).

Secondly, just look at Southee's performances under Bond and compare them to recently.

so should we fire hesson too then? didn't even play FC cricket, must be a **** coach.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

so should we fire hesson too then? didn't even play FC cricket, must be a **** coach.

The head coach has to organise the batting and bowling coaches. So he doesn't have to be a skilled cricketer, just a good strategist.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Is he still the coach of the Volts?

No - Nathan King (not the guy from Zed).

When does Heath Streak come off contract with Bangladesh? He'd do a great job with our quicks.

 

[_Ed_]

Nathan King (not the guy from Zed)

Outstanding.

 

[Zinzan]

Agree. Although I think Southee bowled better than his figures suggest in UAE

Lol, that may be legitimately true in that instance, although if I had a dollar for every time folks said, Southee's figures didn't reflect his bowling......... Seems to be almost every series.

 

[Zinzan]

Yeah I'm not convinced Dimitri will be a great loss either, although he did appear to have a good rapport with players from what we could see from the side-lines.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

The head coach has to organise the batting and bowling coaches. So he doesn't have to be a skilled cricketer, just a good strategist.

What about batting or bowling requires the coach to be a top level player themselves? There's plenty of very, very smart coaches who just didn't have the freakish talent to be an international cricketer. Likewise there's loads of awesome players who are thick as **** and couldn't coach an apple to fall off a tree. If a good coach was a good player then that's certainly a bonus but it shouldn't be anywhere near the top priority.

Ftr I'm not saying dimi was an amazing coach but this is just a pet peeve of mine

 

[kiwiviktor81]

What about batting or bowling requires the coach to be a top level player themselves?

That's like asking what about medicine requires a professor of medicine to actually be a doctor.

Do you think it's a coincidence that the two times our bowling coach was a top ex-fast bowler Southee has improved, while the one time our bowling coach was a mediocre offspinner he declined?

 

[Athlai]

Ffs Mascarenhas was a quick.

 

[Flem274*]

coaches should be great teachers and have a very deep knowledge of the sport first. how good they were as cricketers is secondary.

guys who've had to learn heaps and scrap for every achievement probably have a lot to teach the next generation, because they know every bit of how they did it.

 

[SteveNZ]

That's like asking what about medicine requires a professor of medicine to actually be a doctor.

Do you think it's a coincidence that the two times our bowling coach was a top ex-fast bowler Southee has improved, while the one time our bowling coach was a mediocre offspinner he declined?

Haha, cmon man.

Ignoring the obvious to all who know that Dimitri is/was a medium, at times just quicker bowler with a lot of change ups etc, heard of Troy Cooley? Played a bit of FC cricket and pretty poorly. Graham Ford, hardly played FC at all, and again poorly.

 

[morgieb]

Haha, cmon man.

Ignoring the obvious to all who know that Dimitri is/was a medium, at times just quicker bowler with a lot of change ups etc, heard of Troy Cooley? Played a bit of FC cricket and pretty poorly. Graham Ford, hardly played FC at all, and again poorly.

Actually Cooley backs kiwiviktor's argument up. When Australia replaced him with McDermott as bowling coach our bowling stocks improved exponentially.

 

[kiwiviktor81]

Haha, cmon man.

Ignoring the obvious to all who know that Dimitri is/was a medium, at times just quicker bowler with a lot of change ups etc, heard of Troy Cooley? Played a bit of FC cricket and pretty poorly. Graham Ford, hardly played FC at all, and again poorly.

I'm not saying mediocre players can't be good coaches. I'm saying that, all other things being equal, a player who achieved a high level of proficiency will better be able to communicate how to get to a high level of proficiency than a person who never figured out how to get there.

 

[SteveNZ]

Actually Cooley backs kiwiviktor's argument up. When Australia replaced him with McDermott as bowling coach our bowling stocks improved exponentially.

Not when you consider that Flintoff, Harmison, Jones and latterly Anderson all hit their peaks under Cooley and made mince meat of Australia around the mid 2000s. Maybe that's just a silly Australian mentality, as with Warne and Buchanan, that demands international status to show respect.

Sure, an international career MAY help some coaches. But it's not insurmountable for someone who hasn't, and nor should it be treated as such by anyone.