hendrix
Hall of Fame Member
Yeah but don't forget how important Bracewell was in this win. I know he only got one wicket but he was excellent in the middle overs between when it was swinging and when Wagner found some reverse.
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***Official*** Sri Lanka in New Zealand 2015
- Thread starter Kippax
- Start date
kiwiviktor81
International Debutant
Cheers. Yours and Bahnz's posts make sense now.
It was just that, in my mind, a guy bowling at Milne's speed with Larsen's accuracy pretty much sounds like the best bowler ever. Was confused.
straw man
Hall of Fame Member
Good stat-wrangling. So during a certain period of time an allrounder picked up barely 1 wicket per test while achieving a better bowling average than a struggling out-and-out bowler who failed to retain his place in the side. What does this prove? A whole lot of not much
Santner is not Moeen Ali - he's not the best spin bowler in the country afaics. He's a batsman who will do a good (and tight) job for us with the ball when some spin overs are needed. That's great because that's what's required from him. He's not likely to be a real wicket-taker though.
Neither will Anderson, even if he can stay fit. In a parallel universe Anderson might be a runs-in-all-day workhorse like Bracewell/Wagner, but in this world due to injury he's not that.
I and most others would hate to see either as part of a four-man bowling attack. Surely that should indicate how we really see their bowling - that it's handy but can't be leaned on heavily without leaving the side short of fire-power.
wellAlbidarned
International Coach
Santner will definitely be a wicket-taker on pitches that offer turn, which is pretty much the only time we need him to be. He's kinda like a taller Jadeja.
Skyliner
International 12th Man
haha....I already apologized to Wags. Invariably if you make a (terrible) call you stand to be corrected. There was chat earlier in the test about his jammy wickets, and suddenly he made the short ball work for him in a big way, and that was the x factor play that he brought to the table. It wasn't the stuff they were talking about when he was in Australia; no talk of Wagner and his booming bouncer barrage. I'm really happy the bloke performed and as soon as I posted that condemnatory post it was probably inevitable that he would.
Wagz: WHERE ARE MY HATERZ?!?!? WHERE ARE THOSE GUTLESS ****S?!??!?
Boulteh: Ok, Neil I know you're excited but let's try take it down a notch.
straw man
Hall of Fame Member
Some time in 2017:
Southee + Boult.
Santner as regular spinner while batting at 6.
Bracewell vs Wagner as third seamer.
Milne as fourth seamer in non-SC conditions (after he proves himself through a season of domestix). Replaced by Craig or Yasir Shastle as the attacking spinner on SC tours.
Hangin around and putting up good performances in domestix: Henry, Anderson, Neesham, Sodhi, Nibblet, some other young guys.
Southee + Boult.
Santner as regular spinner while batting at 6.
Bracewell vs Wagner as third seamer.
Milne as fourth seamer in non-SC conditions (after he proves himself through a season of domestix). Replaced by Craig or Yasir Shastle as the attacking spinner on SC tours.
Hangin around and putting up good performances in domestix: Henry, Anderson, Neesham, Sodhi, Nibblet, some other young guys.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Not to mention the fact that "started swinging for the fences, going 8 an over and losing wickets all over the place" is pretty much Vithanage's MO. His First Class strike rate is five runs higher than Glenn Maxwell's; the innings he played in the first dig was really out of character.
straw man
Hall of Fame Member
Stokes is much more of a wicket-taker than Corey Anderson. Moeen Ali's role still seems all over the place too. I'd hate to see us confusing Santner by sending him down to bat at 8 (or for that matter, deciding he's going to open next series because the side is unbalanced without it).
Athlai
Not Terrible
His FC vs. his List A record. WTF
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Haha yeah he seemingly plays exactly the same in both formats and gets very different results based on the field sets. Such a funny player.
Obvious solution: set ODI fields in Tests for him, watch him self-destruct
thierry henry
International Coach
It's hard to imagine what type of player would have a record like that...I can understand the reverse situation (i.e. Guptill- clean striker of the ball, liable to nick off eventually if you set attacking fields, ODI captains are rarely brave enough to take that risk) but a super-attacking batsman with a good enough technique to not nick-off but who can't play List A cricket to save himself?
I guess he just plays super attacking all the time but in a totally brainless manner and keeps hitting the ball to ring fielders or something? Bizarre
I guess to an extent guys like Warner and Sehwag have been like that at least earlier in their careers....Warner in particular is often said to have a good technique but I guess it took him a while to make the adjustment to having more ring fielders to beat and not just being able to blast boundaries through vacant areas?
I guess he just plays super attacking all the time but in a totally brainless manner and keeps hitting the ball to ring fielders or something? Bizarre
I guess to an extent guys like Warner and Sehwag have been like that at least earlier in their careers....Warner in particular is often said to have a good technique but I guess it took him a while to make the adjustment to having more ring fielders to beat and not just being able to blast boundaries through vacant areas?
thierry henry
International Coach
Vithanage also has a good T20 record which makes sense....some guys just can't figure out that middle gear. Slogging= cool, just batting and with big gaps in the field= cool (and they score quickly), playing aggressively but sensibly with placement being more important= too hard
BeeGee
International Captain
Would you prefer Bracewell's stats since his return to the test team? Because he wasn't a struggling bowler then, he forced his way back in through performance in domestics.Good stat-wrangling. So during a certain period of time an allrounder picked up barely 1 wicket per test while achieving a better bowling average than a struggling out-and-out bowler who failed to retain his place in the side. What does this prove? A whole lot of not much
5 matches, 13 wickets, average 44, econ 3.12. Very similar to his 'struggling bowler' stats and not good enough for a test bowler.
Anderson is a better test bowler than Bracewell and I have never understood why he's as highly thought of as he is.
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straw man
Hall of Fame Member
If we must talk stats then 13 wickets is a tiny sample size. How about domestix:
Bracewell: 212 wickets at 34.49. 12600 deliveries bowled.
Anderson: 35 wickets at 41.42. 2700 deliveries bowled.
There's no comparison. Anderson simply doesn't have the bulk of FC wickets or even deliveries bowled to be in the conversation as a specialist bowler. Yeah if he got through two seasons uninjured and did a lot of bowling for ND then could reconsider that, however I'd rather he focus on being a batting allrounder.
Bracewell's domestic average is underwhelming but his recent numbers are probably better.
Bracewell: 212 wickets at 34.49. 12600 deliveries bowled.
Anderson: 35 wickets at 41.42. 2700 deliveries bowled.
There's no comparison. Anderson simply doesn't have the bulk of FC wickets or even deliveries bowled to be in the conversation as a specialist bowler. Yeah if he got through two seasons uninjured and did a lot of bowling for ND then could reconsider that, however I'd rather he focus on being a batting allrounder.
Bracewell's domestic average is underwhelming but his recent numbers are probably better.
Hurricane
Hall of Fame Member
Why the talk of changing a winning team?
I guess it is just us speculating what you would do if everyone was fit. I expect those questions will resolve themselves over the course of the next test and the Australian series ( where hopefully we go with the same team ) then we will have more data points to judge from. We don't know much about Santner just yet.
On to more important matters like my observations of Santners body language and dress code. I didn't get to see if he was still doing a rebel without a cause impersonation out there again but I was pleased in fact very pleased with his reaction after bowling a pie and getting smashed to the fence.
He put his hands on his head and grimaced. He had let himself and his team down and he vowed to do better. That means he learns and adapts and that there is much hope for him.
I think sl made him look better than what he is, but I don't think mark Craig would have done as well. Well bowled young man.
I guess it is just us speculating what you would do if everyone was fit. I expect those questions will resolve themselves over the course of the next test and the Australian series ( where hopefully we go with the same team ) then we will have more data points to judge from. We don't know much about Santner just yet.
On to more important matters like my observations of Santners body language and dress code. I didn't get to see if he was still doing a rebel without a cause impersonation out there again but I was pleased in fact very pleased with his reaction after bowling a pie and getting smashed to the fence.
He put his hands on his head and grimaced. He had let himself and his team down and he vowed to do better. That means he learns and adapts and that there is much hope for him.
I think sl made him look better than what he is, but I don't think mark Craig would have done as well. Well bowled young man.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Yeah, Slater's a really good example as well. ODI cricket is often a lot more about placement with so many fielders in the ring/on the fence, particularly if you bat in the middle order; it's not just just a more aggressive version of Test batting. I tend to think he'd probably go better opening in one dayers.