Greatest keeper batsman - Gilchrist or Sangakkara?

[aussie]

Basically if you are picking a keeper/batsman, you evaluate him based mainly on the matches he actually played as a keeper batsman. To pick Sanga to keep wicket and bat 5 based on his batting 3 isn't logical.

Its isn't logical for you.

IMO its very logical to do so because he was very adaptable player like many others such players in test history. We saw him pretty much throughout his ODI & T20 career (which coincided with his test batting peak after 2008), bat @ 4/5 & maintain his world-class batting standards.

 

[aussie]

Would you pick Dhoni in your all time xi of India or Dinesh Karthik in your all time xi of India?

Farook Enginner, Useless question.

 

[cnerd123]

Pro-tip - use unquantifiable descriptors such as 'Adaptability', 'Potential' and 'Talent' when you are unable to find any solid evidence or provide any concrete analysis to justify your claims.

 

[Pratters]

Its isn't logical for you.

IMO its very logical to do so because he was very adaptable player like many others such players in test history. We saw him pretty much throughout his ODI & T20 career (which coincided with his test batting peak after 2008), bat @ 4/5 & maintain his world-class batting standards.

If Sangakarra was so adaptive, why didnt he bat as well for Sri Lanka when he kept wickets compared to when he didn't keep wickets? Despite the evidence of his entire career, you are ignoring it.

 

[cnerd123]

Its as if people feel Sangakkara magically morphed into a 60+ averaging batsman overnight, and that giving up the gloves and moving up to 3 were just coincidences and played no role in his transformation.

 

[aussie]

Anyways this has all been very amusing. Not expecting you to change your mind Aussie - you'd rather go to your grave believing Craig White was a Test Standard allrounder than accept you are wrong. It's just been hilarious to read all this.

Also I cant let your flawed posting go unchallenged, lest some young impressionable cricket fan in the future stumbles across this thread and reads your posts. The flaws in your arguments should be apparent to most people (as evident by the reactions in this thread), but its nice to have then spelt out clearly.

Just one specific question relating to White outside of the other useless jardon. So given you and maybe others don't believe White was a test standard all-rounder, then in the general analysis here for all and sundry- England beat very strong Pakistan & Sri Lanka teams in their own backyard in 2000/01 (the only team to win in SRI outside during the peak days of the Vaas/Mural era outside of Australia 2004) with the presence of a bits and pieces all-rounder then?

 

[cnerd123]

Yes


India beat SL in SL after aaggeesss recently and we had Stuart Binny playing ffs. Sreesanth played and won a World Cup final.

 

[Pratters]

Farook Enginner, Useless question.

Not useless at all for me. Just solidifies your logical fallacy here. Dhoni was an average keeper and Engineer was a better keeper. Yet, for Stewart you believe differently compared to Knott. You saw 1-2 series of Stewart at end of his career in Asia and thought he was quite good. Dude, given you are 6-7 years younger, you probably missed most of his career unless you started watching cricket with your keen eye when you were 3-4 years old. You are taking a small sample size and making really silly statements.

 

[aussie]

If Sangakarra was so adaptive, why didnt he bat as well for Sri Lanka when he kept wickets compared to when he didn't keep wickets? Despite the evidence of his entire career, you are ignoring it.

Because its an obvious impossible job to be a # 3 a keep wicket in tests cricket, just like keeping and openers. Those are specific limited overs cricket roles that won't work in tests.

That's my assessment of his 2000-2008 period when he kept alot, why he didn't blossom sooner than 2008, since in my opinion he played a lot of eye-catching innings in that eight year period that hinted of his obvious next level talent.

I don't agree that he blossomed into a world-class batsman just because simply because he took off the gloves long term after 2008 in tests - he was already peaking regardless & if SRI had chosen to not pick P Jaywardene to keep - but instead bat Mahela @ 3 & put him Sanga to keep & bat down @ 5 like Flower/De Villiers + pick another batter in top 7, I see no reason why he would not have replicated the same batting exploits.

 

[aussie]

Yes


India beat SL in SL after aaggeesss recently and we had Stuart Binny playing ffs. Sreesanth played and won a World Cup final.

So you are comparing the current SL team IND just beat to the one England beat in 2001 then?

 

[Pratters]

Because its an obvious impossible job to be a # 3 a keep wicket in tests cricket, just like keeping and openers. Those are specific limited overs cricket roles that won't work in tests.

That's my assessment of his 2000-2008 period when he kept alot, why he didn't blossom sooner than 2008, since in my opinion he played a lot of eye-catching innings in that eight year period that hinted of his obvious next level talent.

I don't agree that he blossomed into a world-class batsman just because simply because he took off the gloves long term after 2008 in tests - he was already peaking regardless & if SRI had chosen to not pick P Jaywardene to keep - but instead bat Mahela @ 3 & put him Sanga to keep & bat down @ 5 like Flower/De Villiers + pick another batter in top 7, I see no reason why he would not have replicated the same batting exploits.

But he never did that, so we don't know. Would you pick Barry Richards in a South African All Time Test XI? No.

 

[cnerd123]

Nope. Im saying teams can win matches, and even series, with bits and pieces players.

 

[Pratters]

But why? Knott was a far better keeper than Stewart and they both bat to a certain level as keepers. Knott is actually brilliant if we go by the number 7 logic you put. Even if we just go by your logics, Knott would win million out of million times v Stewart for England surely?

Please respond to this Aussie...

 

[cnerd123]

But he never did that, so we don't know. Would you pick Barry Richards in a South African All Time Test XI? No.

Tbf quite a few people do. But it is very debatable.

 

[viriya]

If Sangakarra was so adaptive, why didnt he bat as well for Sri Lanka when he kept wickets compared to when he didn't keep wickets? Despite the evidence of his entire career, you are ignoring it.

The reason his stats with gloves is much worse than without is because he was keeping at the beginning of his career when he was nowhere near the batsman he became. By the evidence of ODIs and T20Is it shows that he was capable of excelling at both. I do think if he kept throughout his Test career his batting average would be lower, but not as significantly as some might think. Still would be mid-50s imo.

 

[Pratters]

The reason his stats with gloves is much worse than without is because he was keeping at the beginning of his career when he was nowhere near the batsman he became. By the evidence of ODIs and T20Is it shows that he was capable of excelling at both. I do think if he kept throughout his Test career his batting average would be lower, but not as significantly as some might think. Still would be mid-50s imo.

Sangakarra kept wickets till 2008.

Till 2008 Sangakarra's average:

When keeping wickets: 44.43
When not keeping wickets: 54.79

So, you are wrong.

 

[aussie]

Not useless at all for me. Just solidifies your logical fallacy here. Dhoni was an average keeper and Engineer was a better keeper. Yet, for Stewart you believe differently compared to Knott. You saw 1-2 series of Stewart at end of his career in Asia and thought he was quite good. Dude, given you are 6-7 years younger, you probably missed most of his career unless you started watching cricket with your keen eye when you were 3-4 years old. You are taking a small sample size and making really silly statements.

Except Stewart was a better test batsman than Dhoni & even if you think Stewart shouldn't start in a ATXI over Knott - he is still far closer to ATXI consideration for ENG that Karthik is for India - so its a nonsense correlation you are measuring.

I remember asking this point before, since apparently my age is an issue. Please did me what year did I start watching cricket that suggested I probably missed most of his career or would suggest illogically that I would have started watching cricket with a keen eye at 3-4 years old?

 

[Pratters]

Kept only in 1 kep in 2007-08.

So till 2006:

as keeper: 45.5
not as keeper: 50.5

Still a 5 point gap. How would he have done in later years, we cannot base just on speculation.

 

[cnerd123]

Viriya has joined the fray! We can finally have some statistical manhandling too!

 

[aussie]

Nope. Im saying teams can win matches, and even series, with bits and pieces players.

Right so are Binny & White bits and pieces all-rounders on the same level?