The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[AldoRaine18]

Arvinda deSilva / Inzamam ul-Haq above Yuvraj.

Had Inzi but replaced him with Abbas. Aravinda isn't from India or Pakistan.

 

[ankitj]

Oops, I thought it was subcontinent XI

 

[Red]

No he isn't. Usually I am very flexible about things like "he is better than others", but this is just wrong. He wasn't even the best keeper of his generation. Bob Taylor's mentor, Keith Andrew was the best glove-man of their time and Evans was the first selection for England because of his batting.

Godfrey Evans was arguably the best wicketkeeper the game has ever seen.

Keith Andrew was a competent county wicketkeeper

k.

 

[harsh.ag]

ANDREW, KEITH VINCENT, who died on December 27, 2010, aged 81, was recognised for most of his career as the best wicketkeeper in England. This was stated so often in the 1950s and 1960s by small boys and distant newspaper readers that it came to seem more like a proven fact than a matter of opinion. Nonetheless, it was believed by the best judges too. "Keith was my schoolboy hero," said Bob Taylor, before pausing. "No, that's not right. Godfrey Evans was my schoolboy hero. When I became a pro, I changed my allegiances." However, Andrew played two Tests to Evans's 91. Beyond question, Evans was a far better batsman (first-class career average 21 v 13), but the undemonstrative style that made Andrew so much admired was a drawback in catching selectors' eyes.

Cricinfo profile entries aren't usually the best guide.

 

[harsh.ag]

In 13 years of first-class cricket Keith Andrew made only three fifties and played just twice for England. Godfrey Evans's flair for the big occasion, his spring-heeled athleticism and knack of scoring vital runs meant he stayed in the England team for more than a decade until he was 38. But Andrew was widely recognised as the superior 'keeper. Taller than many of his rivals at 5ft 9in, he crouched halfway down, rather than squatting on his haunches in the approved manner. That meant he could cover a lot of ground down the leg side without resorting to the trademark Evans leap that delighted so many press photographers. Andrew accepts why Evans played 91 Tests to his two. "I'm slightly ashamed of my poor batting record. I was a fool not to work at it more. I'd be a much better batsman now, because I wouldn't get a game otherwise for my county, never mind England."

Wisden - Stumpers or stoppers?

 

[Red]

Cricinfo profile entries aren't usually the best guide.

What about Wisden?

'arguably the best wicket-keeper the game has ever seen'

- Wisden on Evans.

Not saying Andrew wasn't good, he was probably outstanding. But this is probably no different to the comments that used to get made about Darren Berry being better than Healy. Some people always think that someone who's not the incumbent is better than the incumbent for whatever reason.

 

[harsh.ag]

What about Wisden?

- Wisden on Evans.

Not saying Andrew wasn't good, he was probably outstanding. But this is probably no different to the comments that used to get made about Darren Berry being better than Healy. Some people always think that someone who's not the incumbent is better than the incumbent for whatever reason.

But it's pretty clear what was the case here. Evans was the showman. Diving across to take the ball. While a great keeper should not be noticed. That his flair and charm and cheerleading (he was apparently a good cheerleader from behind the stumps) may impress many, Andrew was a better keeper. A finer judge than Bob Taylor can't exist. Most others thought so too.

What I am saying is, with Wisden entries (which are the same as cricinfo's for the older generation I gather), you always get a bit of polite embellishment.

 

[fredfertang]

Most of what I have read from Andrew's contemporaries echo the cricinfo sentiments

 

[AldoRaine18]

I've never thought about an England ATG XI

Hobbs
Hutton
Barrington
Hammond
May
Botham
Knott
Trueman
Verity
Larwood
Barnes

Is that it, or have I missed someone really obvious? If not then underwhelming compared to Aussies and Windies to say the least.

 

[bagapath]

I've never thought about an England ATG XI

Hobbs
Hutton
Barrington
Hammond
May
Botham
Knott
Trueman
Verity
Larwood
Barnes

Is that it, or have I missed someone really obvious? If not then underwhelming compared to Aussies and Windies to say the least.

from those you've left out

Grace *
Sutcliffe
Dexter
Compton
Ranji
Ames +
Rhodes
Tate
Laker
Bedser
Snow

EDIT: Removed Statham and brought in Snow after Harsh's post below

 

[harsh.ag]

from those you've left out

Grace *
Sutcliffe
Dexter
Compton
Ranji
Ames +
Rhodes
Tate
Laker
Bedser
Statham

Snow imo

 

[Red]

I've never thought about an England ATG XI

Hobbs
Hutton
Barrington
Hammond
May
Botham
Knott
Trueman
Verity
Larwood
Barnes

Is that it, or have I missed someone really obvious? If not then underwhelming compared to Aussies and Windies to say the least.

For me:

Hutton
Hobbs
Hammond
May
Compton
Botham
Knott
Larwood
Laker
Barnes
Trueman

 

[watson]

I've never thought about an England ATG XI

Hobbs
Hutton
Barrington
Hammond
May
Botham
Knott
Trueman
Verity
Larwood
Barnes

Is that it, or have I missed someone really obvious? If not then underwhelming compared to Aussies and Windies to say the least.

I nearly have the same team as you, but prefer the attacking Dexter at No.3 over the defensive Barrington. Dexter was also a useful bowler and a brilliant fieldsman.

I've also swapped May and Hammond around so that the team gets more value out of Hammond. I think that he would be distinctly uncomfortable against the likes of Marshall with a newish ball. From what I can gather May was more of a street-fighter and therefore better able to cope.

I also rearrange the tail somewhat. Verity should be at No.8 as he was quite a good defensive late order batsman and needed to strengthen the tail.

I do prefer Snow over Larwood by a whisker in bowling, but again, Larwood's batting is very good at No.9.

Bedser could come into the side at the expense of Barnes, but Barnes adds that considerable X-Factor to the bowling.



01. Jack Hobbs
02. Len Hutton
03. Ted Dexter
04. Peter May
05. Walter Hammond
06. Ian Botham
07. Alan Knott
08. Hedley Verity
09. Harold Larwood
10. Fred Trueman
11. Sydney Barnes

 

[watson]

The Top 10 Batting Averages in the West Indies: 1979 to 1994 (5 Tests or more)

1. Mohinder Amarnath:
Tests = 5
Average = 66.44

2. Mark Waugh:
Tests = 5
Average = 61.16

3. Allan Border:
Tests = 10
Average = 53.06

4. Mark Taylor:
Tests = 5
Average = 49.00

5. David Gower:
Tests = 9
Average = 43.88

6. Graham Gooch:
Tests = 11
Average = 41.15

7. Javed Miandad:
Tests = 6
Average = 40.20

8. Allan Lamb:
Tests = 9
Average = 36.11

9. Yashpal Sharma:
Tests = 5
Average = 34.57

10. Ravi Shastri:
Tests = 9
Average = 33.83


(Note: Gavaskar averaged 30.00 over 5 Tests during his 1983 tour)


A great effort by all those batsman, but Border, Gower, Gooch, and Miandad just superb.

 

[Zinzan]

Border's the real stand out for me, because although the Windies were incredibly strong between 79-94, they really peaked in the mid 80s and that's when I recall Border getting most of those runs.

 

[Red]

Another reason M.Waugh is the GOAT

 

[OverratedSanity]

Those stats for Amarnath only include the one series, 82/83 but it's still amazing. WAG he was.

 

[bagapath]

Batsmen averaging 49. Bowlers averaging 29. Keeper averaging 20.


Sehwag
Worrell (C)
Jayawardene
Inzamam
M. Clarke
Kapil
Evans (wk)
Vaas
Kumble
McKenzie
Gibbs

 

[mr_mister]

what about batsman averaging under 40 bowlers averaing over 30 XI

 

[Red]

what about batsman averaging under 40 bowlers averaing over 30 XI

Alec Stewart
Mike Atherton
Mike Gatting
Kim Hughes
Victor Trumper
Frank Woolley
Alan Knott +
Jack Gregory
Geoff Lawson
Ewan Chatfield
Arthur Mailey