The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[watson]

There is also spin to consider;

Once, when I was having dinner with Knott, Marsh, Jeffrey Dujon and Taylor during the 1983 World Cup, I said, "I consider all four of you the best in the world." Knott interrupted me and said, "Kiri, wicketkeeping ability is judged only when a wicketkeeper stands up to spinners, not to fast bowlers. And you have kept to the best [spinners] in the world."

Syed Kirmani

Syed Kirmani: 'I excelled without knowing what wicketkeeping was all about' | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

if Abdv plays, it has to be purely as batsman

i think Gpollock summed it up nicely when the conditions will be tougher

Please - I've seen him standing upto seamers. All these old timers like Healy and GPollock say he cannot do it. Well he can. he can out bat and out role all sorts of previous greats.

The guy is a phenomenal athlete who challenges the perceptions of what can and cannot be done.

He is my XI as a keeper and I have no doubt that he will be fantastic. He's taken stumpings, taken catches, he can do it all.

 

[harsh.ag]

He is my XI as a keeper and I have no doubt that he will be fantastic. He's taken stumpings, taken catches, he can do it all.

Except that this is an assumption as he has never had to keep to world class spinners.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Except that this is an assumption as he has never had to keep to world class spinners.

World class spinners are his backing singers. Its the AB show.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Please - I've seen him standing upto seamers. All these old timers like Healy and GPollock say he cannot do it. Well he can. he can out bat and out role all sorts of previous greats.

The guy is a phenomenal athlete who challenges the perceptions of what can and cannot be done.

He is my XI as a keeper and I have no doubt that he will be fantastic. He's taken stumpings, taken catches, he can do it all.

Is here anyone denying his batting ability? I won't complain if you play him as batsman. But just because he outplays everyone with his unearthly batting does not mean he's going to outplay keepers too. ABdv is a natural athlete and has good reflexes and movement so it's easy to get the impression of him being a solid keeper. But look at his footwork, it's not up there as glovesman. He would not be a terrible keeper mind and not the worst but we are talking about ATGs here. So an ATG keeper has a place in an ATG team.

 

[CaptainGrumpy]

Is here anyone denying his batting ability? I won't complain if you play him as batsman. But just because he outplays everyone with his unearthly batting does not mean he's going to outplay keepers too. ABdv is a natural athlete and has good reflexes and movement so it's easy to get the impression of him being a solid keeper. But look at his footwork, it's not up there as glovesman. He would not be a terrible keeper mind and not the worst but we are talking about ATGs here. So an ATG keeper has a place in an ATG team.

I know I'm ruffling feathers. But AB makes the all time XI for me as a keeper.

Wait until I drop Warne from an ODI XI for Shakib and think about whether Murali gets a spot with Shakib in the team. I imagine there will be an absolute uproar.

Yes, its time Shakib started appearing in some All Time XI teams ahead of Warne. He is much better ODI player than Warne.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Shakib's been a glorified Zimbabwe basher in ODIs. I'd have less of an issue with him in an AT test XI if you can believe that.

 

[watson]

Just for a change of pace - here is a great ODI hundred by the maestro Majid Khan. It took him only 88 balls despite wielding a wafer thin bat that is laughable by todays standards.

Tony Greig's bowlers never looked so ordinary;

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

i'm skeptical about shakib away from home

 

[honestbharani]

I prefer Lara at no. 4 in tests, just about

I do too, but I would drop Punter, pick Sachin and have Lara bat at 3, tbh..

 

[honestbharani]

Except that this is an assumption as he has never had to keep to world class spinners.

Isn;t keeping to an erratic spinner like Tahir more difficult than keeping to Warne or Murali?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Isn;t keeping to an erratic spinner like Tahir more difficult than keeping to Warne or Murali?

Well, not really because Warne and Murali would also produce more chances for the keeper and close in fielders than someone like Tahir. Tahir hardly ever builds enough pressure to create chances for the keeper. A keeper would mostly be a bye-stopper to Tahir than an actual keeper there to convert chances into wickets.

 

[honestbharani]

I think you misunderstand what I said. Obviously, a better keeper is needed to convert the chances that the better spinners will produce but when it comes to judging actual keeping ability, my point is you can learn so much more by how someone keeps to an erratic spinner like Tahir than to an ATG one like Warne or Murali, simply because they will be so much more consistent.


Having kept all the time I have played cricket, obviously at much lower levels, I can tell you I found it the biggest test when I had to keep to our captain who bowled erratic legspin than I had to, when I was keeping to our main spinners.

 

[harsh.ag]

I think you misunderstand what I said. Obviously, a better keeper is needed to convert the chances that the better spinners will produce but when it comes to judging actual keeping ability, my point is you can learn so much more by how someone keeps to an erratic spinner like Tahir than to an ATG one like Warne or Murali, simply because they will be so much more consistent.


Having kept all the time I have played cricket, obviously at much lower levels, I can tell you I found it the biggest test when I had to keep to our captain who bowled erratic legspin than I had to, when I was keeping to our main spinners.

More difficult it may be in terms of uncertainty, and leaking a few runs, but when it comes down to it, keeping technique against subtle variations of good spinners (and the chances offered henceforth) plays the big role, since letting a chance go can be so costly.

 

[honestbharani]

Again, you are just repeating what I said in the first line. My point is not really about ABDV Vs Gilly or anyone else here. Generally, a keeper who keeps well to an erratic spinner is more than likely a good enough keeper to take all the chances that a good spinner can create.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

It's laughable that you're defending Gilly as a 'great' keeper because of his footwork. The bloke unnecessarily dived for many catches and cost wickets more than most are willing to admit. So if you're picking a keeper pick a keeper, if you're picking a keeper/batsman pick DeVilliers.

 

[harsh.ag]

It's laughable that you're defending Gilly as a 'great' keeper because of his footwork. The bloke unnecessarily dived for many catches and cost wickets more than most are willing to admit. So if you're picking a keeper pick a keeper, if you're picking a keeper/batsman pick DeVilliers.

Yes, because either you are a good wicket-keeper, or you are ABdV level wicket-keeper. Something in between, which may be the ideal balance, is unthinkable.

 

[honestbharani]

I would prefer to take Gilly ahead of ABDV if I only had to choose one of these two and they HAD to be my keeper but if I am forced to take ABDV, I wont even feel bad that I do not get Gilly. I am not sure if that clarifies how I rate these two, but that is how I feel...

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Yes, because either you are a good wicket-keeper, or you are ABdV level wicket-keeper. Something in between, which may be the ideal balance, is unthinkable.

Something in between is possibly YOUR ideal balance. For others its Knott, Rvans, Healy, Sanga, McCullum. My point was that Gilly was being talked up due to his apparent great footwork, which compared to other keepers might be considered that he had poor footwork.

 

[watson]

If you are picking an ATG team then Gilchrist wouldn't get a show based on keeping ability alone. By Gilchrist's own admission other keepers were his superior, especially Healy.

However, the equation for the wicket-keeper is 'Keeping + Batting', not just the singular task of keeping. Therefore, Gilchrist is the obvious choice keeper for any ATG cricket team. This is because Gilchrist placed the 'most importance' on his glovework and by any measure his skills would surfice for most ATG XIs.

Having said that, I think that when it comes to Test matches Alan Knott's 'Keeping + Batting' is slighting greater than Gilchrist's 'Keeping + Batting'. Obviously, Knott couldn't take an attack apart like Gilchrist. However, against quality pace like Lillee and Thomo, and Holding and Roberts he was a genius, and I can't imagine Gilchrist doing much better.

Note: Knott's batting average after the 74-75 Ashes series was 36.4 with 3 x 50s and a century. The only other English batsman to average higher were John Edrich (43.3, 2 x 50s, zero 100s) and Tony Grieg (40.5, 3 x 50s, 1 x 100s).

Who was the best keeper you ever saw?

I didn’t see a lot of Alan Knott but from what I have seen of footage, he must have been amazing. Jack Russell just had beautiful hands. Class. But I cannot imagine anyone doing anything better than Ian Healy. Like all of us, he had his fumbles early on but once he was fully integrated into that team ... his work to Warne was inspirational for me. As far as I was concerned he was so often technically perfect. I learnt a lot about training from him.


You changed the way cricket selections work because keepers are often chosen for their batting. Do you think that’s right?

I think about this question a lot. People might think I am hypocritical because clearly my batting gave me an opportunity, certainly in the one-day team. I still always placed most importance on my wicketkeeping. I hope glovework is taken equally into account. I would like to think if I was not up to the standard, I would not have been there. I think there still has to be a large focus on the glovework. One-day cricket changed it. Sri Lanka changed it again in 1996 with the keeper opening. But all cricketers now know the value of being able to bat. Look at the fast bowlers now — they all know how to bat.

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