• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

*Official* New Zealand in England 2015

C

CaptainGrumpy

Banned
Yeah. Determined young man who was disappointed for both the team and at himself for getting out in the manner that he did.

I hope he isn't thrust with captaincy too early. I hope they only give it to him if and when he truly wants it post McCullum. It is rather nice just having a run scoring machine go about his business without any extra burdens.

If Ross continues his dominating ODI form back into tests - I wonder if he would be happy that he was relieved of the captaincy.

Captaincy should not be thought of as a mark of being the best player in the team.
 
Last edited:
A

artvandalay

State Vice-Captain
kiwiviktor81 said:
Nah, we made Fleming captain at a younger age than Williamson is now and it worked out fine. McCullum will likely be around for at least 2 more years anyway.
Click to expand...
a shrewd tactical mind but I do think Fleming could and should have been an even better batsman than what he was. Difficult to say if being a captain impacted his form.
 
C

CaptainGrumpy

Banned
artvandalay said:
a shrewd tactical mind but I do think Fleming could and should have been an even better batsman than what he was. Difficult to say if being a captain impacted his form.
Click to expand...
Why take the risk with Williamson?

Sri Lanka almost seem to treat the captaincy like a duty burden that the senior pros have to share around. Many greats tried captaincy and got rid of it. Williamson is not outspoken or gregarious. He appears naturally introverted and focussed. I am not sure he is a sports leader as such. He will an all time great NZ batsmen. But noone cared for Coney or Howarth's batting records. Flemming underachieved with the bat. But they are great NZ captains.

The team can find a leader, it does not need to be Williamson. He can be the Crowe or the Hadlee superstar of the team. He does not need to be the captain.
 
Last edited:
kiwiviktor81

kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
CaptainGrumpy said:
I am not sure if you're serious or making a joke point to agree with me.
Click to expand...
I was serious - Fleming became the captain at 23 and ended up our highest Test run scorer. Williamson is 24 and probably won't become captain until he's 26 or 27. I don't think there's any danger of the captaincy affecting his batting.
 
C

CaptainGrumpy

Banned
kiwiviktor81 said:
I was serious - Fleming became the captain at 23 and ended up our highest Test run scorer. Williamson is 24 and probably won't become captain until he's 26 or 27. I don't think there's any danger of the captaincy affecting his batting.
Click to expand...
Well if you play enough matches.

9 centuries from 111 matches...

End of career average finally hit 40. That does not reflect his batting talent. Flemming is probably New Zealand's best captain. But he is not talked about as one of our best batsmen. Do you think he could have been given his talent?

Are you serious about the last sentence? I mean I am not to pigeon hole Williamson, but there are endless examples of all time great players that captaincy did not agree with their personal form.

Plus, does he have the personality type to lead a team? I would imagine that he has a great cricketing mind and is a thinking cricketer. That is not in dispute.
 
Last edited:
kiwiviktor81

kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
Sure, and on the other hand Martin Crowe played better as a captain.

It's hard to speculate about Williamson's personality because a handful of years ago he was still at high school. Now he's in an extremely competitive international environment surrounded by adults, most of whom have been playing the game much longer than him. If he's a bit quiet it's understandable.

Anyway, he sounds clear and confident when giving interviews. I'm sure he won't be too introverted to be the captain and, anyway, who else is it going to be, realistically?

Edit: no, I don't think Fleming was good enough to average higher, captaincy or otherwise. He was a very good batsman but no more.
 
Last edited:
C

CaptainGrumpy

Banned
kiwiviktor81 said:
Sure, and on the other hand Martin Crowe played better as a captain.
.
Click to expand...
Martin Crowe's averages are crippled by his slow start to cricket. Everyone knew he was a boy wonder, but he had a Lille Thommo baptism of fire. He came of age a few years after starting to play international cricket.

His captaincy stats as a one day player also need further examination. Despite his stellar his 1992 World Cup with the other matches he played as captain he averaged more under John Wright for three years before taking the captaincy than the three years he was captain for. He averaged less despite the 1992 World Cup. He played well under Lee Germon after lost the captaincy, but that is only a sample of four matches. He didn't play well under Rutherford.

I also don't think he did play better as a captain. Not in test cricket anyway. That 299 against a very weak Sri Lanka, and easy runs against Zimbabwe skews his figures as captain.Between 1985 - 1990 he was dominant against the best. As he was again when relieved of the test captaincy in 1994.

His test numbers:
season 1981/82 3 4 0 20 9 5.00 73 27.39 0 0 1 4 0 view innings
season 1983 4 8 0 163 46 20.37 511 31.89 0 0 2 19 0 view innings
season 1983/84 6 9 1 246 100 30.75 766 32.11 1 0 1 39 1 view innings
season 1984/85 10 17 0 684 188 40.23 1541 44.38 1 4 0 91 3 view innings
season 1985/86 6 9 2 488 188 69.71 1044 46.74 2 1 2 61 0 view innings
season 1986 3 5 2 206 106 68.66 441 46.71 1 0 0 22 0 view innings
season 1986/87 3 6 1 328 119 65.60 816 40.19 2 1 0 37 1 view innings
season 1987 1 1 0 27 27 27.00 30 90.00 0 0 0 5 0 view innings
season 1987/88 6 11 0 612 143 55.63 1238 49.43 2 3 0 65 1 view innings
season 1988/89 2 4 1 261 174 87.00 651 40.09 1 1 1 27 0 view innings
season 1989/90 4 5 0 253 113 50.60 489 51.73 1 1 0 38 0 view innings
season 1990 3 4 0 96 59 24.00 231 41.55 0 1 0 9 1 view innings
season 1990/91 5 9 2 609 299 87.00 1317 46.24 2 1 0 62 4 view innings - Sri Lanka skewed
season 1991/92 3 6 1 212 56 42.40 536 39.55 0 1 0 26 0 view innings
season 1992/93 7 14 0 572 140 40.85 985 58.07 2 2 1 66 10 view innings - Zimbabwe skewed
season 1993/94 1 2 1 73 42 73.00 195 37.43 0 0 0 9 0 view innings
season 1994 3 6 0 380 142 63.33 704 53.97 2 1 0 54 4

But you may have your own opinion. He is fondly remembered for his captain's heroics in the 1992 World Cup, and maybe the 299. I think it skews the big picture. I don't even think Crowe would rate the 299 higher than his 188s against Australia and Windies, or his post captaincy runs in England in 1994.

He expected and the public expected him to get the captaincy. It was almost a family business. He was more talented than Jeff. I think it was possibly a curse for him given the way he was developing before the captaincy.
 
Last edited:
Meridio

Meridio

International Regular
Re. captaincy - just because someone appears introverted does not necessarily mean they are not leadership material. It's a bit of a myth - and particularly seems prevalent in NZ, given my experience with sports teams anyway - that leaders must be talkative, demonstrative, extroverted alpha-male types and so on. We seem to view a captain's role as one of firing the troops up, giving inspiring pre-game speeches and ear-bashings if guys are not performing. It's more complex than that. Putting the tactical part of it aside, captaincy is just as much about creating a strong team culture, where guys can feel comfortable in their own skins, where there's a constant drive for self-improvement and concepts like honesty and trust are highly valued. There's a lot of man-management to it, and introversion by no means is antithesis to that concept.

For example, I hate to bring rugby into any discussion, but if you look at the All Blacks Richie McCaw seems a reasonably introspective type, and he's been a pretty successful captain.
 
Jarquis

Jarquis

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Andrew Mathieson called up so misses the next two Devon Premier League games after rolling my club's lower order on Saturday...
 
BeeGee

BeeGee

International Captain
How is intent the key? What does that even mean? It's BS speak used by motivational speakers, captains and coaches to sound like they know what they're talking about when they're actually saying nothing at all.

John Wright showed intent when he batted an entire day and only scored 50 runs. His intention was to not get out.

Jesse Ryder showed intent when he missed a morning team practice. His intention was to sleep off his hangover.

I showed intent when I scratched my balls last night while watching telly. My intention was to relieve my itchy balls.
 
C

CaptainGrumpy

Banned
BeeGee said:
How is intent the key? What does that even mean? It's BS speak used by motivational speakers, captains and coaches to sound like they know what they're talking about when they're actually saying nothing at all.

John Wright showed intent when he batted an entire day and only scored 50 runs. His intention was to not get out.

Jesse Ryder showed intent when he missed a morning team practice. His intention was to sleep off his hangover.

I showed intent when I scratched my balls last night while watching telly. My intention was to relieve my itchy balls.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Top