The Kane Williamson Average Watch thread

[cnerd123]

I can buy that argument. If Kane's numbers end up Kallis-esque then I'd consider him better too, for the same reasons as you (harder batting situations, harder bowling conditions)

 

[Zinzan]

So this hypothetical KW would be greater than Kallis?

KW > Hadlee > Kallis
?

I will say this though, if KW finishes with 10,000 runs at 55, takes 431 wickets @ 22, he'll undoubtedly be the best of the 3

 

[Hurricane]

I will say this though, if KW finishes with 10,000 runs at 55, takes 431 wickets @ 22, he'll undoubtedly be the best of the 3

 

[OverratedSanity]

Rather simplistic to say Kane would be better just because his openers suck.

I'd rate kw higher (assuming he gets Imola nunbers) if he keeps producing top class knocks like he has in the last few years with regularity. That's one small thing which is rare in kallis' resume... Truly great knocks.

 

[Zinzan]

Because, as *I* said, Kane would spend half his career playing in conditions that are toxic for spin bowling. Daniel Vettori, the greatest spin bowler in NZ history, could barely keep his average below 35. In the past few years, guys like Ashwin, Panesar and Herath have come to NZ and been turbo-****ed. Furthermore, Kane is almost certainly going to play a lot fewer tests than Kallis' 166, so he's probably not going to have the opportunity to rack 290 test wickets. But 210-220 from 130-odd tests would still be quite an achievement. Which, of course he'll never accomplish.

Another point - if Kane averages the same as Kallis, he'll have a pretty serious claim to being a better batsman than him. Kallis spent a large chunk of his career batting behind Smith and Amla, meaning he frequently got to come in and bat with the new ball blunted and the opposition bowlers tired. Even if Latham and mk.2 Guptill go on to average mid-30's (probably optimistic in Guptill's case), Kane's going to have a significantly tougher job though out his career. Hence we I tend to think that he'll probably finish his career with a high 40's/50ish average.

You're making an awful lot of caveats for him now. Both from a batting and bowling perspective.

Can't we then donate Kallis another 100 wickets for having to often bowl as a 4th seamer when the Steyns, Pollocks & Donalds of this world always got the new ball and the best conditions while we're bringing all these other considerations into it? I mean the amount of times Kallis bowled a lot of overs at the worst times when the front-liners were resting, waiting for the new-ball....

 

[Zinzan]

Rather simplistic to say Kane would be better just because his openers suck.

.

Precisely, we're starting to make lots of exceptions now.

 

[Bahnz]

You're making an awful lot of caveats for him now. Both from a batting and bowling perspective.

Can't we then donate Kallis another 100 wickets for having to often bowl as a 4th seamer when the Steyns, Pollocks & Donalds of this world always got the new ball and the best conditions while we're bringing all these other considerations into it? I mean the amount of times Kallis bowled a lot of overs at the worst times when the front-liners were resting, waiting for the new-ball....

...was a lot less common than the number of times that Kallis came in to bowl on a green wicket with the opposition batting in tatters.

 

[Zinzan]

...was a lot less common than the number of times that Kallis came in to bowl on a green wicket with the opposition batting in tatters.

Honestly not so sure about that, I know SA have been a dominant team throughout his career, I just recall him having to do a lot of thankless donkey work when teams did score big 450+ scores against them.

Anyway Bahnz, gloves off for now. My missus is due home and I have the 2nd half of our argument from last night to finish off

 

[Zinzan]

Well, I did say that Williamson would have to take at least 2 wickets a match with a couple of 5 wicket hauls, which looks very unlikely at this stage.

A good point was made on Hadlee averaging 5 wickets a match. In that case, drag his average down to about 20. So Williamson to have equivalent career stats would have to average about 55-56 (and average around 65 for a 10 year period to equate to Hadlee's peak).

That's a very big ask. The batting stats are possible, the bowling not so much.

Apologies DOG, I had missed that 2wickets per match qualifier initially. Quite right.

 

[Smudge]

Anyway Bahnz, gloves off for now. My missus is due home and I have the 2nd half of our argument from last night to finish off

I'm kidding, Zinny....

 

[Zinzan]

Brilliant

 

[honestbharani]

Oooh I want to add that Steyn also benefits from the 'strike bowler' tag. His job is to take wickets while a guy like Morkel has the job of roughing up the batsman at the other end. He also often gets the job of wiping out the tail. He benefits from his role within the team.

So it's not even like he is 'competing' for wickets. He is the designated wicket-taker. Fair enough that he has to be bloody good to get that role to begin with, and that he is awesome at it...but a guy like Morkel is a gem of a bowler in his own right, and will end his career with numbers that don't do him justice due to the role he plays in the side.

Not that I disagree with your premise, but how does it explain Steyn being gun even after Philander emerged and had that loong peak?

 

[honestbharani]

me and Migara vs Ikki iirc.

And you still survived to tell the tale.....................

 

[cnerd123]

Not that I disagree with your premise, but how does it explain Steyn being gun even after Philander emerged and had that loong peak?

Philander isn't a strike bowler. He's just the swing specialist - new ball and old ball when it's reversing. Steyn still gets called in to take wickets and still gets to wipe the tail

Will check this later but doesn't Philander have the same WPM as Steyn during the time they have played together?

 

[Coronis]

Philander isn't a strike bowler. He's just the swing specialist - new ball and old ball when it's reversing. Steyn still gets called in to take wickets and still gets to wipe the tail

Will check this later but doesn't Philander have the same WPM as Steyn during the time they have played together?

4.86 for Steyn, 4.17 for Philander. Steyn has 5.08 over his entire career. Not much of a difference really.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

After 40 tests Williamson is averaging 47 with 10 centuries, while after 40 tests Hadlee had taken 179 wickets at 25.72 and averaged 21.66 with the bat.

It shows a) what a great start KW has made to his career and b) how incredibly dominant Hadlee was for the rest of his career - apart from Sanga and the Don has anyone been as good from mid-30s - (he took another 252 wickets in his last 46 tests at under 20 and averaged over 33 with the bat)


Likewise, Trent Boult has taken 119 wickets in 31 tests at 26.79. After 31 tests SRJH had 136 but was averaging 27.97.

 

[honestbharani]

Its interesting isn't it, that people keep bringing up that amazing period of Imran's career but Hadlee's 46 test stats are even better IMO..

 

[wellAlbidarned]

if you take any class player there will be an arbritray period of 30-50 games with ridiculous stats that you can pick out. Careers aren't homogenous.

 

[Bahnz]

How about just Hadlee in the 80's then: 289 wickets at 19.28, 2040 runs at 30.90

His highest average against any team in this period was 23.67 against England.

 

[Coronis]

if you take any class player there will be an arbritray period of 30-50 games with ridiculous stats that you can pick out. Careers aren't homogenous.

Thats why I don't trust Bradman's stats one iota.