Which team failed to produce a single ATG player in last 30 years?

[Pratters]

Cairns wasn't consistently great in his career as a bowler which is the breaking factor here.

After first 10 tests,

95 - low 20s
96-98 - averages above 30
99 - 20.5
2000 - close to 30
2001 - 26.5
2002-3 - 1 test
2004 - 32.

He may be at around same level as say Kapil Dev in terms of the level of his play without having the longevity of Kapil. That is potential ATG but not ATG.

 

[Flem274*]

I realise I'm contradicting my previous stats heavy post a bit, but Cairns is like Flintoff - generic averages don't tell the true story.

 

[Pratters]

Chris Cairns played 62 tests. The tests under Stephen Fleming, the time when NZ cricket had stability, are quite phenomenal -

159 wickets in 42 tests @ 26.66. Strike rate of 49.5, Economy of 3.23.

This is why I feel he could have done so much more. Take that over 70 tests in a career spanning 90 tests, and you have a great career. However, Cairns just played 62 sadly.

 

[Jono]

Doing it to Indian posters is one thing, but doing it to the Lankans is just plain bullying.

This post is proof duffer has barely been around the last 12 months.

 

[GIMH]

This post is proof duffer has barely been around the last 12 months.

Heh

 

[NZTailender]

However, Cairns just played 62 sadly.

Sir Don played a grand total of 52 Tests.

 

[Teja.]

I wouldn't call Cairns and Flintoff all-time great players.

I'd basically have Kapil over them by a pretty big margin and there are all-rounders leagues ahead of Kapil, like Hadlee and Imran.

To put peak-Kapil's career in context of Flintoff/Carins, In 1979, he played 17 tests in the year and took 74 wickets @ 22.9 and in 1983, he played 19 tests and took 75 wickets @ 23.1 and this included 57 wickets @ 22 against the West Indies,would love seeing some modern bowlers have a go at that. Durability is an underrated thing, especially with a position like an all-rounder where you chance ****ing up the team balance each time you are injured.

There's precisely zero batsmen/bowlers/all-rounders who I consider all-time greats I'd take Flintoff/Cairns career over.

 

[GIMH]

Everyone has been talking about Freddie in ODIs though...

Though, IMO, if you can make a case for Cairns as a Test ATG then you can Freddie, as in on peak alone (say 2003 V Saffa through to India away 06). Which is all I'll say on that matter. But otherwise, by bringing Freddie into your post above and then reeling off Kapil's bowling stats in Tests, you're arguing with things that haven't been said.

But in ODIs. Freddie is King. If England played more ODIs in his time, ignoring the fact he'd have probably broken sooner, he'd have smashed records. Bona fide batsman & bowler in the format and had few peers as a death bowler.

 

[Teja.]

Everyone has been talking about Freddie in ODIs though... Though, IMO, if you can make a case for Cairns as a Test ATG then you can Freddie, as in on peak alone (say 2003 V Saffa through to India away 06). Which is all I'll say on that matter. But otherwise, by bringing Freddie into your post above and then reeling off Kapil's bowling stats in Tests, you're arguing with things that haven't been said. But in ODIs. Freddie is King. If England played more ODIs in his time, ignoring the fact he'd have probably broken sooner, he'd have smashed records. Bona fide batsman & bowler in the format and had few peers as a death bowler.

Yeah, I wasn't arguing against you tbh, was grunchin'

Flintoff is an ATG in ODIs though, bowled a very sick length which I think is close to optimal for ODIs as a standard and wish Broad bowled more often like that in the format.

 

[GIMH]

Yeah, I wasn't arguing against you tbh, was grunchin'

Flintoff is an ATG in ODIs though, bowled a very sick length which I think is close to optimal for ODIs as a standard and wish Broad bowled more often like that in the format.

Funnily enough, before Broad became an absolute gun in Tests he was a much better ODI bowler than he is now, IMO.

 

[Pratters]

But Flintoff didn't play enough ODIs. Surely that counts against him being ATG in ODIs?

 

[weldone]

Flintoff didn't achieve much in ODI World Cups.

That's why he won't be in contention for a spot in my AT XI. His rivals for the all-rounder spot (Kapil, Klusener) all delivered impact performances in World Cups.

 

[Valer]

Which team has not produced a single ATG player in last 30 years, in test or ODI s?

Or who was the worst best player out of them?

Define ATG in terms of # of players. IMO people are too generous in calling players ATGs.

 

[Howe_zat]

Today a Year 11 student asked me 'why do golfers have two pairs of trousers?'. After giving me a moment, he said 'in case they get a hole in one'. It was widely agreed that this was one of the 'best jokes ever' and so taking him at his word, this means that someone is an ATG cricketer if they are as good as that joke.

 

[YorksLanka]

Sri Lanka have never done anything to anyone. Probably because they've not ever produced the players required to do so.

 

[dogwalker]

Sorry English people, but Flintoff is not getting in my ATG ODI team.

Where's he batting?

 

[Contra]

Flintoff didn't achieve much in ODI World Cups.

That's why he won't be in contention for a spot in my AT XI. His rivals for the all-rounder spot (Kapil, Klusener) all delivered impact performances in World Cups.

Yesterday I checked his WC stats out of interest, and they are pretty good bowling wise (I didn't check batting stats). But yeah the only memory I have of Flintoff in ODIs is during that 5-0 trashing in 08 when Yuvraj wrecked him lol. Anyways the guy only played 140 odd ODIs so he wouldn't be the first on my list for AT XI players.

 

[Migara]

They definitely has done something to that grumpy old fella.

 

[dogwalker]

As a South African, I find World Cup stats meaningless.

 

[weldone]

Yesterday I checked his WC stats out of interest, and they are pretty good bowling wise (I didn't check batting stats). But yeah the only memory I have of Flintoff in ODIs is during that 5-0 trashing in 08 when Yuvraj wrecked him lol. Anyways the guy only played 140 odd ODIs so he wouldn't be the first on my list for AT XI players.

263 runs @ 18.78, SR 67.75. Yes, he was good bowling-wise but he never produced any defining performance in WCs overall. I don't hold him solely responsible for England not reaching semifinals in 3 attempts, but you'd expect such tournament-defining performances from a ATG all-rounder.

Compare that with the impact Kapil and Klusener made in 1983 and 1999, respectively. Even Jayasuriya in 1996 or Yuvraj in 2011 achieved all-round tournament-defining performances that Flintoff never managed (they're not better all-rounders obviously).