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**Official** Pakistan v New Zealand in the UAE 2014
- Thread starter Kippax
- Start date
Blocky
Banned
You are - you're attempting to state categorically that "Well I've seen Wagner bowl and I'm going to trust my own eyes" - despite the fact that Wagner has a number of notable performances of reverse swing, hence him getting the monniker within NZ Cricket as "the go to guy for reverse swing" - there is an argument that I'd support that he should be playing infront of Boult in the sub continent due to this factor... but like I say, you go to the "Well this one time, Southee did this thing" - rather than repeated consistent success. It reminds me of you also saying that Milne was a beast of a swing bowler now, because in one game he was getting the ball to move - he then plays in an actual international game and what happens? No swing.
Be more subjective in your opinions and I won't have cause to call them out for being wrong and argumentative - but that's alright, you continue to argue with Richardson, Bond, Crowe, O'Brien, et all who have commented on his abilities. We'll -trust- your eyes.
Blocky
Banned
Seems to be your fallback position, the whole "you haven't watched cricket"
And what happened when Milne played? - that's the problem with trusting your eyes, Hendrix... we've seen the results of that in the past.
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ohnoitsyou
International Regular
Southee's 7 for in India featured reverse swing, which is a good two years back.
On some NZ pitches, the ball is still conventional swinging by the 35th-40th over, so how does Wagner manage to get it reversing by the 40th on all but the most abrasive of surfaces?
On some NZ pitches, the ball is still conventional swinging by the 35th-40th over, so how does Wagner manage to get it reversing by the 40th on all but the most abrasive of surfaces?
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ohnoitsyou
International Regular
Milne hasn't been swinging it, because a) he has been trying to bowl full out pace, and b) he has been bowling too short.
Possibly more importantly, he still looks pretty nervy, so thats going to kill his seam presentation.
Possibly more importantly, he still looks pretty nervy, so thats going to kill his seam presentation.
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Blocky
Banned
The key words you used "on some" - some wickets in NZ you'll struggle to ever get the ball to reverse, but others, such as the Basin or Seddon Park which have extended pitch blocks you're able to get the ball moving earlier. The basis of this argument is so silly though, Wagner - extremely well known for his reverse swing, is being questioned by people extremely well known for not liking Wagner. Good one.
Blocky
Banned
C) - because he can't do it consistently, because he doesn't actually know how to swing the ball.
wellAlbidarned
International Coach
Accuses everyone else of being too sensitive and responding emotionally to criticism of players.
Proceeds to take valid criticism of his favourite player as evidence that people "don't like him".
Proceeds to take valid criticism of his favourite player as evidence that people "don't like him".
Hurricane
Hall of Fame Member
Cricinfo preview is now posted Spin and swing test for New Zealand | Cricket News | Pakistan v New Zealand | ESPN Cricinfo
the big bambino
International Captain
Anyways where to for Kiwis? For mine I don't think Sodhi is ready yet. An impression amplified by the fact Pakistan's batsmen are so awesome right now. They've monstered Lyon who is pretty good so NZ's less credentialed spinners were always likely for serious humpty. Agree with WW that Wagner should come in. While discussion has been on bowling lets not forget NZ's batting needs to improve mightily as well. NZ are in much the same position as Oz were in UAE. Changes to personnel are no where near as important as every man performing a lot better. Oz couldn't do it; lets see if NZ can.
hendrix
Hall of Fame Member
We played two spinners last match. Sodhi clearly outbowled Craig. If Wagner comes in it should be for Craig.
Athlai
Not Terrible
Agreed, I also have more confidence in Sodhi with the bat at the moment.
#tasteitKippax
the big bambino
International Captain
Jayzeus; then you are stuffed.
Fair enough though. You guys saw the match so Wagner for Craig
straw man
Hall of Fame Member
Getting the impression we will name two spinners again in defiance of the toss, with bowling last being our plan for a win if and if not, no real plan B and we play despairingly like we're ten miles behind from the outset.
Aside from anything else, the latter will be pretty boring so here's hoping we get to bat first. Then we need Williamson to ton up.
Also if this thread is as bad as it was last test I think I will explode.
Aside from anything else, the latter will be pretty boring so here's hoping we get to bat first. Then we need Williamson to ton up.
Also if this thread is as bad as it was last test I think I will explode.
wellAlbidarned
International Coach
if everyone just pretends a certain two posters don't exist it'll be fine
talking about phlegm and howsie obvs
talking about phlegm and howsie obvs
the big bambino
International Captain
Strawman's point about the toss is a good one. Lets see if Pakistan can dominate chasing a first innings as well as they've done setting the pace.
Mike5181
International Captain
Come on. Athlai's the real problem here.
wellAlbidarned
International Coach
athlai = phlegm tbf
Blocky
Banned
One of those doesn't exist at the moment, the other is probably close to it also.
It's not really valid though, you have a guy with a world record in first class cricket where he was reverse swinging the ball in the 70th over to take those wickets - as well as notable wickets of Pietersen and Trott with the ball in about the 35-40th over moving off its line in reverse and suddenly "No, he can't reverse the ball" - also the provisionist argument that you've now settled for when I say "Boult doesn't get reverse and Southee takes longer to get it to reverse" has become "But Southee can get it to reverse" - which wasn't the initial argument. Your pack mentality doesn't stop the fact that your points entirely redundant on the basis of evidence.
Sodhi and Craig are playing, the only consideration at the moment is whether Neesham plays with Wagner being considered as an option in his place. Sodhi did bowl better than Craig in this test, but history of results and performance indicate that won't be the case in the second and third tests. But the reality is neither should be playing for NZ, neither are good enough to consistently take wickets nor tie up an end.