**Official** Pakistan v New Zealand in the UAE 2014

[Blocky]

As cricketers progress through club, age-group, and domestic cricket in these countries, the ones who naturally bowl in the right pace range with the right grip and release are noticed and promoted up the ranks, as opposed to those who are just quick and accurate but without the inherent ability to reverse the ball.

Great point - where as in NZ, if you're a seam bowler who can land 5 out of 6 in the spot you want to land them in, doing it at 130kmh with the slight hint of swing, invariably our pitches will do the rest for you. Hell, if you're a leg spinner, you only have to land 1 out of 6 to get your first test.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Where as you perpetuate arguments and then attempt to tell me that you're the bastion of forum behavior and not just a bandwagon poster who decided to jump on an already dead discussion because you took umbrage with me playing the ball... meanwhile your focus is now to play the man.

You do realise the moderators see through that horse **** right? - Last post I bother with in this vain, from now on I'm just going to report any of you who start **** or perpetuate finished **** over nothing more than a misguided belief that you know how to post on forums better than others.

gagf Blocky. Hurricane is the most respectful poster on this forum. He's constantly apologizing if he thinks he's crossed a line, and scolding the rest of us for being not pc enough.

The mods have much better things to do than try and sort this **** out. All of us have been warned once, so i wouldn't be surprised if we didn't hear anything until a few of us get a notification telling us we are banned.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Yeah, the physical environment seems to be a massive factor in the types of bowlers you can produce. It makes me wonder how you can replicate sub-continental conditions in New Zealand without having to play tests there.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Takes more than two to three boundaries to stop the ball swinging though, I think more so the climate there doesn't have conventional swing for longer than a few overs unless you're getting through the air slightly quicker than other bowlers. Also I feel our bowlers didn't pitch the ball up as much as the Pakistani bowlers which again robs you of the chance of late swing through the air. We were trying to use the pitch and there was really nothing there to use. The Pakistani's bowled better variations, changes of pace, used angles more and pitched it up.

So what you are saying is the boundaries Sodhi gave away every 2 and a bit overs in the first innings woudn't have stopped the ball reversing?

 

[Blocky]

So what you are saying is the boundaries Sodhi gave away every 2 and a bit overs in the first innings woudn't have stopped the ball reversing?

Sodhi went for 24 boundaries and 2 sixes... double the boundaries of any other NZ bowler. And Sodhi, unlike the pace bowlers, isn't landing the ball on the seam most of the time, he's landing it on the flesh/leather and doesn't have any control over which side that happens on - which was kind of the point made before you derailed it with something about "Well the ball has already been hit out of shape before he bowls"

 

[Blocky]

Yeah, the physical environment seems to be a massive factor in the types of bowlers you can produce. It makes me wonder how you can replicate sub-continental conditions in New Zealand without having to play tests there.

Glue. The Eden Park #2 wicket was a sub continent pitch, ask anyone who had the displeasure of playing on it.

 

[Daemon]

All valid points - but it's more than just a skill. You need to be able to bowl at a certain speed with a certain type of release from the hand to get the ball to reverse. And that's more natural than taught.

As cricketers progress through club, age-group, and domestic cricket in these countries, the ones who naturally bowl in the right pace range with the right grip and release are noticed and promoted up the ranks, as opposed to those who are just quick and accurate but without the inherent ability to reverse the ball.

I don't know about the mechanics at all but we've seen reverse from guys bowling anywhere in the low 120s to high 140s, so I don't know how true that study's conclusion is (assuming you or your source is referring to the one with the diagrams and funny wind tunnel shenanigans) wrt to the speeds needed for reverse at least. No idea about what release is optimal for reverse, but it could be learnt right? Dunno really.

Anyways the lines between learning a skill and talent are a bit blurred imo. Something like swing could be natural to someone and thus a talent but to another it could be a skill learnt through practice.

 

[Blocky]

I don't know about the mechanics at all but we've seen reverse from guys bowling anywhere in the low 120s to high 140s, so I don't know how true that study's conclusion is (assuming you or your source is referring to the one with the diagrams and funny wind tunnel shenanigans) wrt to the speeds needed for reverse at least. No idea about what release is optimal for reverse, but it could be learnt right? Dunno really.

Anyways the lines between learning a skill and talent are a bit blurred imo. Something like swing could be natural to someone and thus a talent but to another it could be a skill learnt through practice.

There was a school of thought that NZ, Australian, English and South African bowlers are all taught to back spin the ball by ripping the fingers down the seam with a higher arm action, where as sub continent players do tend to have a slingier action and tend to release the ball without as much spin but I don't think there was any conclusive proof one way or another.

The other thing you notice is that most of the NZ bowlers coming out these days are bowling out-swing where as a lot of the sub continent players I remember had in-swing as their primary suite, different arm action and speaking as an in-swing bowler, I always generated far more swing than any outswinger I saw, a lot of it for me came down on the plane of my arm as I pulled it through, if I brought it down on the left side of my body, I'd get later swing, if I bought it down between my legs or more to the right side of my body, I'd get earlier and much more prevalent swing.

Wasim Akram used to talk about the plane of the arm and how he'd go from side on to chest on with certain deliveries to get the ball to do what he wanted. A lot of players these days are so ingrained in their techniques that they can't alter them for conditions like some of the greats (Lillee comes to mind too) used to.

 

[Blocky]

Of course the other thing that comes to mind is partnership bowling, sub continent teams generally have spinners who can keep the pressure up after the new ball bowlers finish their spells meaning the batsmen don't get a respite, meaning they play a lot more tentatively and haven't got a chance to flow into runs when the spinners come on.

 

[Daemon]

Of course the other thing that comes to mind is partnership bowling, sub continent teams generally have spinners who can keep the pressure up after the new ball bowlers finish their spells meaning the batsmen don't get a respite, meaning they play a lot more tentatively and haven't got a chance to flow into runs when the spinners come on.

Tbf for India, Bangladesh and Lanka most of the respite is when the pace bowlers are on

 

[SteveNZ]

Blocky, my man...all these players of note you have apparently taken the field aside, wouldn't it be a touch embarrassing if they read some of the stuff you come up with?

People come here to discuss their sport of passion, on occasion in a opined and heated manner, and not make it personal. Not to be belittled because you believe you have the answers. Let em do it

 

[cnerd123]

I don't know about the mechanics at all but we've seen reverse from guys bowling anywhere in the low 120s to high 140s, so I don't know how true that study's conclusion is (assuming you or your source is referring to the one with the diagrams and funny wind tunnel shenanigans) wrt to the speeds needed for reverse at least. No idea about what release is optimal for reverse, but it could be learnt right? Dunno really.

Anyways the lines between learning a skill and talent are a bit blurred imo. Something like swing could be natural to someone and thus a talent but to another it could be a skill learnt through practice.

The difference is contrast and reverse swing.

Contrast is when the ball just swings towards the shiny side. It's what Flintoff et all exploited so brilliantly in the Ashes. It can be done with bowlers in the ranges of 120-140.

Reverse is very different. It's when you get the ball to swing opposite to the direction it would if the ball was new. That's something that requires the right speed, release, and is as much an inherent talent as it is a skill.

And yea I am referring to that article.

The science of swing bowling | Old Regulars | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo
Reverse swing or super swing? | Old Regulars | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[Daemon]

Blocky, my man...all these players of note you have apparently taken the field aside, wouldn't it be a touch embarrassing if they read some of the stuff you come up with?

People come here to discuss their sport of passion, on occasion in a opined and heated manner, and not make it personal. Not to be belittled because you believe you have the answers. Let em do it

edit: ffs got sucked into making a post about it. can we all just move on for now.

 

[Howsie]

Steve, the people's champ has spoken. Jalepeno to take note.

 

[Blocky]

Blocky, my man...all these players of note you have apparently taken the field aside, wouldn't it be a touch embarrassing if they read some of the stuff you come up with?

People come here to discuss their sport of passion, on occasion in a opined and heated manner, and not make it personal. Not to be belittled because you believe you have the answers. Let em do it

No, to be honest, most of them would be surprised I'm not flat out insulting people for being so sensitive over discussion on cricket, because they're actually cricketers who come from the same environment I did where growing up, insulting one another was one of the ways you showed your mateship.

Do you see me getting my nose out of joint when people throw insults my way? Do you see me getting sensitive over people saying "Well you're wrong and stupid for thinking that way?" - I took endless amounts of **** over Wagner, didn't phase me in the slightest. But like I said, I won't bother responding to posts like this, I only respond to yours because I have respect for you, from this point on, the moment it becomes about "Blocky" and not Cricket - I'm just going to use the report feature. Petty I know, but it'll likely stop the bull**** arguments and the repeated assertions from people such as yourself that I'm the devil and apparently have learnt how to tango without anyone else being involved.

 

[cnerd123]

edit: ffs got sucked into making a post about it. can we all just move on for now.

I need to see the pre-edited version of this.

 

[cnerd123]

No, to be honest, most of them would be surprised I'm not flat out insulting people for being so sensitive over discussion on cricket, because they're actually cricketers who come from the same environment I did where growing up, insulting one another was one of the ways you showed your mateship.

Do you see me getting my nose out of joint when people throw insults my way? Do you see me getting sensitive over people saying "Well you're wrong and stupid for thinking that way?" - I took endless amounts of **** over Wagner, didn't phase me in the slightest. But like I said, I won't bother responding to posts like this, I only respond to yours because I have respect for you, from this point on, the moment it becomes about "Blocky" and not Cricket - I'm just going to use the report feature. Petty I know, but it'll likely stop the bull**** arguments and the repeated assertions from people such as yourself that I'm the devil and apparently have learnt how to tango without anyone else being involved.

Dude chillax. No need to get so emotional.

 

[Blocky]

Tbf for India, Bangladesh and Lanka most of the respite is when the pace bowlers are on

Yes, but then I'd dare say Ishant Sharma would be an entirely different prospect had he played 60% of his games in NZ/England. So on the flip side, you guys lose out because your bowlers who would suit our conditions invariably don't suit your own.

 

[sledger]

Dude chillax. No need to get so emotional.

Can't you read?! He specifically said he was NOT getting emotional.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Sodhi went for 24 boundaries and 2 sixes... double the boundaries of any other NZ bowler. And Sodhi, unlike the pace bowlers, isn't landing the ball on the seam most of the time, he's landing it on the flesh/leather and doesn't have any control over which side that happens on - which was kind of the point made before you derailed it with something about "Well the ball has already been hit out of shape before he bowls"

Neither does Neil Wagner. Ouch.

Maybe going for runs is irrelevant when he took more wickets than ooh lets see, every other bowler put together.