Disparity between Pakistani and Indian great pace bowlers.

[cnerd123]

I'm not convinced that genetics doesn't play a part - how many genuinely great athletes in any discipline have been produced by India?

Not many, but that's because the India government doesn't invest in sports, and Indian culture doesn't see (non-cricket) sports as a worthwhile pursuit.

It's well documented how poorly our Olympic athletes get treated. They are underpaid and our facilities are pretty ****. Any other sport that isn't cricket does not pay well enough to provide a livelyhood either - hockey, football, kabbadi, tennis, etc. Most, if not all, of India's best athletic talent gets driven away from sports to pursue 'proper' careers from a very young age.

You could say that if Indian's were more genetically gifted athletically, then nation as a whole would probably be more supportive of sports. It is a feasible theory. But given a country the size of India, I am pretty sure that if they chose to actually invest in sport, and to seek and develop talented athletes, they could compete on the global stage. After all, look at China's domination at the Olympics.

 

[hendrix]

I for one think it's a great thing that the government doesn't invest in sport, unless it's on the (somewhat dubious) pursuit of population health.

 

[the big bambino]

TBB, you need to look at the OP again.

I was responding to a proposition that consequentially arose from it.

As to Nissar he was born an Indian but died a Pakistani. Even though his POB and DOB is stated on cricinfo as Punjab. I didn't know until now but there appears to be Pakistani and Indian regions called Punjab with the partition crossing through the region. So by choice he called himself a Pakistani. I look at Nissar much like KP. Both men playing for another country due to their differing circumstances, though obviously Nissar didn't have the choice during his playing time.

I read an article in the 80s about Nissar and Amar Singh. The writer mentioned India's pitches at the time were fast and the country produced a number of fast bowlers. He then went through a list which included Amar Singh's brother Ramji who was the swiftest of the lot. He offended a powerful maharajah and that supposedly limited his representative chances. As a contrast the Saffer pitches were quite slow culminating in the 5 grossest roads produced for a series in 38/39. A situation that is opposite the present day's.

I'm not completely convinced prevailing conditions explain either a dearth or supply of fast bowlers. But there appears to be a symmetry here btwn India's fast pitches and good supply of pacemen in the 30s and SA's ever since with the changing of pitch conditions

 

[smash84]

I'm not completely convinced prevailing conditions explain either a dearth or supply of fast bowlers. But there appears to be a symmetry here btwn India's fast pitches and good supply of pacemen in the 30s and SA's ever since with the changing of pitch conditions

Your sample size seems to be very limited to be making this conclusion though

 

[the big bambino]

True and Australia's pitch conditions in the 30s and 40s would contradict it. We had fast pitches in the 30s and our best bowlers were wrist spinners. Pitches slowing down here in the 40s coincided with the rise of Lindwall, Miller and Johnston as well as a good support cast of pace men.

 

[r3alist]

India being so vast, populous and universally cricket mad means that any generalisation based on diet/genes is probably futile.


India will have many more multiples of meat eaters than most other test playing nations.

The genetic argument also seems bunk, if the combined punjab is a shared gene pool then india surely should have had atleast one quality bowler come through.


All this implies to me a high level of ineptitude, poor administration and other typical ingredients like regionalism and poor management.

Pakistan also has its issues, they are too punjab centric, if more time given to players from nw regions than Pakistan could be in much better shape still, for too long Pakistan has been a punjab dominated team IMO.

 

[Goughy]

True and Australia's pitch conditions in the 30s and 40s would contradict it. We had fast pitches in the 30s and our best bowlers were wrist spinners. Pitches slowing down here in the 40s coincided with the rise of Lindwall, Miller and Johnston as well as a good support cast of pace men.

I was sitting with a former Test seamer a couple of weeks ago and we were talking about how to bowl on different tracks. His point, which he backed up very well, was that express pace is needed on flat decks and less important of more helpful or fast decks. The bowler has to put in what the pitch left out otherwise you are cannon fodder. A bowler has to know how to bowl on different tracks but being able to bowl flat out on dead wickets is key to success.

If you see a flat track and settle for line and length and trying to make the ball wobble then you are already screwed. More coaches need to think like this as it is counter intuitive.

 

[the big bambino]

Funny thing is Zaheer Khan said the same in a cricinfo interview but referring to bowling in Australia. His advice even for bowlers of his pace, was to bowl as hard as you can. Some, in fact most, bowlers don't have express pace but if they were prepared to bend their backs can get the ball to bounce or come on quicker than the batsmen wants. That would mean bowling them in shorter spells making an economical slow bowler an important ingredient of an attack.

 

[smash84]

Interesting points above. I actually think express pace will help you on flat tracks only if you pitch it up full. A short length just blunts the express bowler. I think Geoffrey Boycott recently mentioned it recently on "bowl to boycs" that bowlers like Mitchell Johnson who are hit the deck hard types would be less helpful on such tracks compared to let's say a Waqar Younis. You would expect the reverse on bouncier tracks.

 

[the big bambino]

That's how Pakistan's express bowlers have overcome their conditions and as we've seen the skill is applicable around the world. Zak was much slower but was also capable of the reverse swing which made him a good bowler in flat conditions.

 

[subshakerz]

You need captains and a cricket culture that encourages young bowlers to bend their backs and bowl fast. India doesnt have that. The average youngster wants to be a batting pro, and looks up to Gavaskar, Sachin and now Kohli as his role models.

That's why I maintain that the real difference between the two countries began with Imran. Not only did he bowl full and fast himself, but he encouraged Wasim and Waqar to do the same as captain. So successful were his performances, so captivating was his bowling action and so charismatic was he personally, he caused a mind shift in how young Pakistanis thought about cricket.

Irfan Pathan when he first came was quite lively, akin to a young Wasim. But I get the sense he wasnt really encouraged to be a firebrand, and was put into the line and length mold, especially by playing so much ODI cricket. Ditto Mohammad Shami. Remember the buzz when he played his first test, and now. Think of what Imran would have made of them.

 

[smash84]

You need captains and a cricket culture that encourages young bowlers to bend their backs and bowl fast. India doesnt have that. The average youngster wants to be a batting pro, and looks up to Gavaskar, Sachin and now Kohli as his role models.

That's why I maintain that the real difference between the two countries began with Imran. Not only did he bowl full and fast himself, but he encouraged Wasim and Waqar to do the same as captain.

Irfan Pathan when he first came was quite lively, akin to a young Wasim. But I get the sense he wasnt really encouraged to be a firebrand, and was put into the line and length mold, especially by playing so much ODI cricket. Ditto Mohammad Shami. Remember the buzz when he played his first test, and now. Think of what Imran would have made of them.

That's true. I remember Aqib Javed once talking about Imran's captaincy and narrated that Pakistan were playing the WI and it was early days for Aqib. Viv Richards came on to bat and Aqib was just an 18 year old at that time. Imran told him to go in and bowl quick to Viv. Aqib went in and bowled a short pitched delivery to Viv. Viv just let it go. On his return Imran said something along the lines of "yeah, that's right go in and break that mofo's face and next time give him a piece of your mind too."

Imran probably wanted Aqib to learn a few things too since he asking Aqib to try and intimidate Viv with fast bowling , but yeah Imran wanted the bowlers to bowl quick and be aggressive.

 

[longranger]

You need captains and a cricket culture that encourages young bowlers to bend their backs and bowl fast. India doesnt have that. The average youngster wants to be a batting pro, and looks up to Gavaskar, Sachin and now Kohli as his role models.

That's why I maintain that the real difference between the two countries began with Imran. Not only did he bowl full and fast himself, but he encouraged Wasim and Waqar to do the same as captain. So successful were his performances, so captivating was his bowling action and so charismatic was he personally, he causeed a mind shift in how young Pakistanis thought about cricket.

Irfan Pathan when he first came was quite lively, akin to a young Wasim. But I get the sense he wasnt really encouraged to be a firebrand, and was put into the line and length mold, especially by playing so much ODI cricket. Ditto Mohammad Shami. Remember the buzz when he played his first test, and now. Think of what Imran would have made of them.

I guess that's the difference - Imran groomed Wasim and Waqar and the Pakistani team always needed to have fast bowlers. On the other hand, I feel that the Indian team post-Kapil was content to have perhaps only one quick strike bowler (mostly Srinath in the 90s) while the attack would mostly be focussed around spinners. I think that's where the difference came - Pakistan would continue focus on fast bowlers along with their spinners whereas India was content with getting all 20 wickets by spin. How many teams have played 4 front-line spinners ?!

Things may change though, Umesh Yadav and Varun Aaron may have an impressive time in Australia..