The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[kyear2]

Speaking of keepers, between Monks draft and working on my ATG teams I have come up with my top 10. The elite keepers, wicketkeeper batsmen and the true all rounders.

In order of appearance.

Bert Oldfield
H.B. Cameron
Les Ames
Godfrey Evans
Don Tallon
Allan Knott
Syd Kirmani
Jack Russell
Ian Healy
Adam Gilchrist

All could handle a bat and all were elite versus spin and pace.

 

[watson]

In your list kyear Cameron, Ames. Knott, Healy, and Gilchrist would bat at No.7, while Oldfield, Evans, Tallon, Kirmani, and Russell are more suited to No.8 I think. So there are two tiers of 'wicketkeeper batsman'.

 

[kyear2]

They are. The pure keepers and the keeper batsmen. Though they are some that straddle both fences like Knott, Ames, Cameron and possibly Oldfield. In order of pure keepers the order, highly subjective may look something like.

Tallon
Oldfield
Cameron
Knott
Healy
Ames
Evans
Gilchrist
Russell
Kirmani

What do you guys think.

 

[cnerd123]

I would be very hard pushed to put Tallon and Oldfield at number one when all we really have on them are anecdotes and testimonies from those who saw them.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Engineer never seems to enter these kind of discussions somehow. Absolute hero.

 

[fredfertang]

Engineer never seems to enter these kind of discussions somehow. Absolute hero.

Quite - used to love watching him keep - he put the odd one down, so I can't say he was as good as Alan Knott, but was such a flamboyant cricketer - almost all the Lancashire supporters my age preferred him to Clive Lloyd, despite the fact that he almost always flattered to deceive with the bat - but his keeping was always thrilling

 

[kyear2]

I would be very hard pushed to put Tallon and Oldfield at number one when all we really have on them are anecdotes and testimonies from those who saw them.

Who would you place at number one?

 

[kyear2]

Engineer never seems to enter these kind of discussions somehow. Absolute hero.

He was in the running, but Kirmani was seen to be better vs spin and pace and I think all of those mentioned have warrented their spots above him.

 

[bagapath]

does Haddin ever figure in these discussions at all?

 

[cnerd123]

Who would you place at number one?

Not informed enough on keepers to make a call here. Haven't watched enough of them. Gilly is usually first choice for ATG XIs, and Andy Flower a close second, so I don't give it much thought.
If going on pure keeper skill, Knott/Russel/Healy are all spoken of highly, seen little clips here and there too, but not enough to separate them.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Not informed enough on keepers to make a call here. Haven't watched enough of them. Gilly is usually first choice for ATG XIs, and Andy Flower a close second, so I don't give it much thought.
If going on pure keeper skill, Knott/Russel/Healy are all spoken of highly, seen little clips here and there too, but not enough to separate them.

Many people choose him, but I don't agree at all. Wan't a good enough keeper imo. Very sloppy.

 

[watson]

Herbert Strudwick should know what he is talking about, and wrote in 1959;

I have never seen a better wicket-keeper than Evans, but I class W. A. Oldfield, the Australian, H. B. Cameron, of South Africa, and Lilley as his equal. These men, who stood close up to the wicket to all bowling, had splendid records and did their work without any fuss. Each was quick in putting down the wicket when the occasion arose and none could be excelled when it came to taking catches.

Wisden - From Dr Grace to Peter May

I think since Evans kept so successfully to Bedser at the stumps, while also having to contend with Laker, Lock, Trueman and Statham, then I would have think that Strudwick's opinion is pretty accurate with respect to pre-modern keepers.

 

[cnerd123]

I mean, just cause he kept to good bowlers and writers of that era thought he was good isn't enough really. Keeping and Fielding are two attributes, in my opinion, which can only be fairly judged by one's eyes. Batting and Bowling have statistics that can be analysed, compared, and scorecards tend to reflect good performances...but keeping and fielding are just so subjective.

Using the same line of logic, Prassana Jayawardene has kept to Murali and Herath, and has stood up the wicket to medium/medium fast bowlers a lot of times. He is also widely praised for his glovework. Is he as good as Evans, Oldfield and Tallon? How would you even begin to compare?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, that for me personally, I find it hard to rate an olden day keeper or fielder highly because all we have to judge their skills by is anecdotal evidence. If we have some sort of solid statistical means, or video footage, to back up the all the stories and tributes, then it would be different.

 

[watson]

I mean, just cause he kept to good bowlers and writers of that era thought he was good isn't enough really. Keeping and Fielding are two attributes, in my opinion, which can only be fairly judged by one's eyes. Batting and Bowling have statistics that can be analysed, compared, and scorecards tend to reflect good performances...but keeping and fielding are just so subjective.

Using the same line of logic, Prassana Jayawardene has kept to Murali and Herath, and has stood up the wicket to medium/medium fast bowlers a lot of times. He is also widely praised for his glovework. Is he as good as Evans, Oldfield and Tallon? How would you even begin to compare?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, that for me personally, I find it hard to rate an olden day keeper or fielder highly because all we have to judge their skills by is anecdotal evidence. If we have some sort of solid statistical means, or video footage, to back up the all the stories and tributes, then it would be different.

There is also the fact that selectors tend to drop keepers if they end up not being very good. Gpdfrey Evans kept for England over 13 years, and 91 Tests. And in those days 91 Tests was a heck of a lot of Tests.

 

[kyear2]

Wisden - The great wicket-keepers

 

[marc71178]

There is also the fact that selectors tend to drop keepers if they end up not being very good. Gpdfrey Evans kept for England over 13 years, and 91 Tests. And in those days 91 Tests was a heck of a lot of Tests.

Not always the case. The best keeper I ever saw kept being left out of the England team.

 

[OverratedSanity]

There is also the fact that selectors tend to drop keepers if they end up not being very good. Gpdfrey Evans kept for England over 13 years, and 91 Tests. And in those days 91 Tests was a heck of a lot of Tests.

Not always the case. The best keeper I ever saw kept being left out of the England team.

Yeah, inferior keepers with better batting ability are always preferred to better pure keepers, and this has been true throughout history

 

[weldone]

Yeah, inferior keepers with better batting ability are always preferred to better pure keepers, and this has been true throughout history

Not in the 19th century

 

[harsh.ag]

Not in the 19th century

Yes, because you would know. And yes, since we hardly have 2-3 wicket-keeper batsmen per generation, so the teams of England's league may not have had much choice.

 

[watson]

Wisden - The great wicket-keepers

The key quote from that Wisden article is;

The greatest of them all? This can only be a matter of opinion; many England cricketers, from Arthur Gilligan to Colin Cowdrey give their votes for Oldfield; Blackham, Lilley Strudwick, Ames, Evans, Tallon, Grout, cannot be far behind: Strudwick himself placed Evans, Oldfield, Cameron and Lilley as equal top. The world's best wicket-keeper today is probably the restless, muscle-flexing Alan Knott. In the 1970-71 series in Australia, says Alan Smith, Warwickshire captain and England Test selector, Knott achieved a personal pinnacle possibly never exceeded by any other wicket-keeper. His own team mates on their victorious return spoke in awe of some of his far flung catches, and above all of the general effect upon the side of his verve and vigour as the focal point in the field. The opinions of his colleagues were fully supported by seasoned judges in the other camp. There are many who believe that given a greater consistency he will ultimately rival Oldfield.

Prior to Alan Knott it seems that Bert Oldfield was a consistent favourite. For example, Walter Hammond in his biography thought that Oldfield was the best keeper he saw while Cameron the fastest stumper.