The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[watson]

Here is one last link on keeping. Admittedly the myriad of stats aren't overly useful in determining whether a keeper is great or not, but a few numbers still caught my eye.

Blogs: Test wicketkeepers: Everything you wanted to know about | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo

*Gilchrist tops the list in 'Dismissals per Test' at 4.33.

*Gerry Alexander took 43% of his teams total catches. Wonder why the ball got snicked to him so often relative to other keepers like Dujon?

*Paul Downton conceded only 2.8 Byes per Test thus making him the cleanest keeper in history. Interestingly Andy Flower conceded a very creditable 4.5 Byes per Test thus putting him on a near par with Alan Knott. Obviously Knott kept to trickier bowlers, but this still doesn't stop Flowers work behind the stumps being efficient enough.

*A whopping 40% of Oldfield's dismissals were stumpings - thanks largely to O'Reilly and Grimmett no doubt. The second on the list with 24.2% was Les Ames. This was a bit of a surprise as I expected to see an Indian keeper.

*Andy Flower scored 80.1 'Runs per Test' when keeping thus making him a very successful keeper-batsman. Sangakkara came second with 67.0 runs, and Gilchrist third with 58.0 runs. At 58.0 runs Gilchrist is not that far ahead of the rest of the pack with Engineer hot on his heals at 56.8 runs.

*Rod Marsh is consistently underated as a keeper-batsman IMO.

 

[harsh.ag]

I think, because of Gilchrist, a whole host of dudes are underrated as wicket-keeper batsmen #outlier

 

[kyear2]

Rod Marsh, like Dujon really didn't get to prove them selves vs spin, hurting their overall reputations.

 

[watson]

Rod Marsh, like Dujon really didn't get to prove them selves vs spin, hurting their overall reputations.

Here are some highlights from the West Indies second innings during the MCG Test of 1981. The Test where Hughes scored one of the greatest 100s of all time.

At about the 9 1/2 minute mark of the clip we see Marsh make a lightening fast stumping off Bruce Yardley to dismiss Dujon who had fought doggedly for most of the West Indies innings. The greatness of the stumping lies in the fact that it was during the last quarter hour of the 4th day so Marsh had already been on the field for about 6 hours. It was also a major turning point of the match as the tail finally folded chasing 219 for victory.

Marsh kept wicket extensively to Ashley Mallet, and then Jenner, O'Keefe, Bright, and Yardley. Therefore, I think that Marsh did enough facing spin to prove himself against that form of bowling.

Bit it really doesn't end there. Because the keeper stands in the best position on the field to 'read' the game, keeping has to be more than just about catching a ball behind the stumps. Part of Marsh's greatness lies in the fact that he was a shrewd and clever thinker of the game, and therefore I don't think that either Chappell would have had the same success as Captain without him. As an allround keeper, batsman AND tactician I don't think that there has been too many better than Marsh.

 

[kyear2]

Benaud rates him highly as well.

 

[fredfertang]

I think Marsh's nickname of "Iron Gloves" says it all

ATG at sinking tinnies though

 

[the big bambino]

No one's dismissing their opinion and saying Tallon and Oldfield were rubbish. Far from it. But it's absolutely impossible and pointless to use anecdotal evidence, and only anecdotal evidence to compare players so far separated by time. A direct comparison between Tallon and PJ is hence completely impractical. People like Knott are different. As you said, we have enough footage of Knott which is further backed up by contemporary praise to see that he was without doubt better than PJ. But when you're comparing keepers separated by 70-80 years of history, it's just dumb to directly compare them.

Why do you keep repeating that I'm "casting aside" the evidence? Weird.

Just a comment on the last para first. My mistake for you reading it that way. At the time I meant to say "One could" not "You could".

However now that I read your 1st para I guess I could be referring to you. Look if you read Strudwick's appraisal of Lilley, Oldfield and Evans (an opinion backed by the stats insofar as the number of tests they played) without demur you've accepted anecdotal evidence as a method of judging players. Then a comparison across generations can be made anecdotally. A person who might only know of Evans can get an idea of how good Lilley was by comparison with him by someone who's seen both. By such overlapping comparisons you could get an anecdotal comparison starting from Lilley all the way to PJ. So that a blind man who, can nonetheless read braille, can form an opinion without seeing any one of them.

 

[cnerd123]

It wouldn't be a very solid opinion though...

I guess if you could get everyone who watch/played cricket in the 1900s - 1930s to rank the keepers they saw in order of skill, and take an average, then ask those who watched through 1910s - 1940s to do the same, then overlap the two lists, and then go to the 1920s - 1950s, and so on and so forth to the modern day, you could probably get a pretty good idea of who stands where in the list of keepers.

Maybe someone dedicated enough will spend a few years reading all there is to read about wicketkeepers through history, take into account all the eyewitness accounts, and form a definitive list like above of all the pre-television keepers throughout history....that might be worth something.

 

[JBMAC]

Interesting take on keepers.I have been fortunate to see most of those mentioned.Forget the stats. That does not give you a true indication of their ability behind the stumps.1. Don Tallon 2. Wally Grout 3.Farokh Engineer 4.Godfrey Evans 5.John Maclean 6. Allan Knott 7. Gilchrist 8. Ian Healy 9.John Waite 10. Dujon.. Now that list is based on who I saw! Stylists all and smart and efficient behind the sticks. There would not be too many here who have seen them all and I would not have brought it up unless the argument seemed to drift around and around as to pundits who have not seen these guys play and who seemed to belittle history. Well maybe I have as well but in my opinion these ten are the best I have seen.

 

[Red]

John Maclean

Self praise is no recommendation

 

[OverratedSanity]

Interesting take on keepers.I have been fortunate to see most of those mentioned.Forget the stats. That does not give you a true indication of their ability behind the stumps.1. Don Tallon 2. Wally Grout 3.Farokh Engineer 4.Godfrey Evans 5.John Maclean 6. Allan Knott 7. Gilchrist 8. Ian Healy 9.John Waite 10. Dujon.. Now that list is based on who I saw! Stylists all and smart and efficient behind the sticks. There would not be too many here who have seen them all and I would not have brought it up unless the argument seemed to drift around and around as to pundits who have not seen these guys play and who seemed to belittle history. Well maybe I have as well but in my opinion these ten are the best I have seen.

Fair enough. I respect your list since you've seen them all and can thus form an acceptably solid conclusion.

But smh, for the last time, no one is belittling history by saying that comparisons across decades, or even centuries, are difficult to make when very few will have seen them all, because as you yourself said, seeing wicketkeepers actually keep is the only real way to gauge their quality. Since you say, you have seen them all, I'm quite prepared to accept it.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

ATG England ego team.

1-11 Kevin Pietersen.

 

[the big bambino]

Self praise is no recommendation

Hmmm. I see that John Maclean was born in 1946 whereas I think our JBMAC might be a little more venerable. Btw OS I wouldn't trust JBMAC's maroon eye. C'mon JB; I'm sure you can fill your top 10 with Queenslanders.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Interesting take on keepers.I have been fortunate to see most of those mentioned.Forget the stats. That does not give you a true indication of their ability behind the stumps.1. Don Tallon 2. Wally Grout 3.Farokh Engineer 4.Godfrey Evans 5.John Maclean 6. Allan Knott 7. Gilchrist 8. Ian Healy 9.John Waite 10. Dujon.. Now that list is based on who I saw! Stylists all and smart and efficient behind the sticks. There would not be too many here who have seen them all and I would not have brought it up unless the argument seemed to drift around and around as to pundits who have not seen these guys play and who seemed to belittle history. Well maybe I have as well but in my opinion these ten are the best I have seen.

Is that list in order of merit? I've seen five of those and Alan Knott would be head and shoulders above the rest, followed by Healy and Gilchrist. I can't even bring myself to mention Engineer or Dujon in the same sentence. Bob Taylor and Wasim Bari were both superior to all but Knott.

 

[kyear2]

Dujon was absolutely brilliant to fast bowling. Wouldn't totally dismiss that.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Interesting take on keepers.I have been fortunate to see most of those mentioned.Forget the stats. That does not give you a true indication of their ability behind the stumps.1. Don Tallon 2. Wally Grout 3.Farokh Engineer 4.Godfrey Evans 5.John Maclean 6. Allan Knott 7. Gilchrist 8. Ian Healy 9.John Waite 10. Dujon.. Now that list is based on who I saw! Stylists all and smart and efficient behind the sticks. There would not be too many here who have seen them all and I would not have brought it up unless the argument seemed to drift around and around as to pundits who have not seen these guys play and who seemed to belittle history. Well maybe I have as well but in my opinion these ten are the best I have seen.

Good order. I always found Wally Grout had the fastest hands particularly in terms of stumpings. What's your reason putting 'Deafy' Tallon ahead of him?

 

[weldone]

Interesting take on keepers.I have been fortunate to see most of those mentioned.Forget the stats. That does not give you a true indication of their ability behind the stumps.1. Don Tallon 2. Wally Grout 3.Farokh Engineer 4.Godfrey Evans 5.John Maclean 6. Allan Knott 7. Gilchrist 8. Ian Healy 9.John Waite 10. Dujon.. Now that list is based on who I saw! Stylists all and smart and efficient behind the sticks. There would not be too many here who have seen them all and I would not have brought it up unless the argument seemed to drift around and around as to pundits who have not seen these guys play and who seemed to belittle history. Well maybe I have as well but in my opinion these ten are the best I have seen.

What about
1. Rod Marsh, and
2. Rashid Latif?

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Of those I've seen. And have retired. My XI at the moment.
1. Saeed Anwar
2. Matthew Hayden
3. Brian Lara*
4. Jacques Kallis
5. Rahul Dravid
6. Ricky Ponting
7. Ian Healy+
8. Shaun Pollock
9. Shane Warne
10. Sir Curtly Ambrose
11. Glenn McGrath

 

[watson]

One-from-each-era XI

01. Jack Hobbs
02. WG Grace
03. Viv Richards
04. Walter Hammond
05. Garry Sobers
06. Allan Border
07. Adam Gilchrist
08. Richie Benaud
09. Ray Lindwall
10. Dale Steyn
11. Sydney Barnes

OR

01. Sunil Gavaskar
02. Matthew Hayden
03. Kumar Ranjitsinhji
04. Graeme Pollock
05. Michael Clarke
06. Keith Miller
07. Monty Noble
08. Alan Davidson
09. Bert Oldfield
10. Bill O'Reilly
11. Curtly Ambrose

 

[weldone]

One-from-each-era XI

01. Jack Hobbs
02. WG Grace
03. Viv Richards
04. Walter Hammond
05. Garry Sobers
06. Allan Border
07. Adam Gilchrist
08. Richie Benaud
09. Ray Lindwall
10. Dale Steyn
11. Sydney Barnes

OR

01. Len Hutton
02. Sunil Gavaskar
03. Kumar Ranjitsinhji
04. Graeme Pollock
05. Michael Clarke
06. Keith Miller
07. Monty Noble
08. Imran Khan
09. Bert Oldfield
10. Bill O'Reilly
11. Curtly Ambrose

How do you define the eras?