The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[kyear2]

Hobbs
B. Richards
Bradman
V. Richards
Lara
Sobers
Evans
Akram
Marshall
Warne
Holding

Hammond
Hooper

 

[smash84]

Thanks for reviving this thread folks

 

[harsh.ag]

I more than expected this thread to explode back to life during the MCCvROW game

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Gilchrist was one of the most destructive batsmen in cricket history. He could turn a tight game overwhelmingly in Australia's favour inside a session. At no point would I have DeVilliers, Flower, Knott, Ames, Lindsay or anyone over him and would be stoked if you had 1st chance to pick him in a draft but overlooked him.

Good for you, and he was at times very exciting as a batsman and took some good catches. But his overall effectiveness is not overwhelming as a keeper to everyone, so prepare for your excitement to be upheld.

 

[the big bambino]

Yeah...at times. Anyway never give a sucker an even break and if you really think that I wont disabuse you.

 

[Red]

Good for you, and he was at times very exciting as a batsman and took some good catches. But his overall effectiveness is not overwhelming as a keeper to everyone, so prepare for your excitement to be upheld.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "his overall effectiveness is not overwhelming as a keeper"?

Overall, I think he maintained an exceptional standard of wicketkeeping throughout his career. At the very end he declined slightly.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I more than expected this thread to explode back to life during the MCCvROW game

Yeah ATG XI:

Arun Finch
Arun Finch
Arun Finch
Arun Finch
Yuvraj Singh
Paul Collingwood
Chris Read (wk)
Saeed Chuckmal
Saeed Chuckmal
Saeed Chuckmal
Saeed Chuckmal

 

[Red]

Yeah ATG XI:

Arun Finch
Arun Finch
Arun Finch
Arun Finch
Yuvraj Singh
Paul Collingwood
Chris Read (wk)
Saeed Chuckmal
Brett Lee
Saeed Chuckmal
Saeed Chuckmal

.

 

[harsh.ag]

Barry
Viv
Lara
Sobers
Grace
Miller
Gilly
Wasim
Warne
Bond
Murali

 

[honestbharani]

Shouldn't Grace be opening? Viv at 3 and the Prince at 4 and Sobers at 5 would settle that line up much better

 

[harsh.ag]

Shouldn't Grace be opening? Viv at 3 and the Prince at 4 and Sobers at 5 would settle that line up much better

Yeah But I wasn't going with logic there. Just something I would like to see happen. Have to start with the Richardses

 

[harsh.ag]

Plus Grace and Miller batting together would be so good...

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "his overall effectiveness is not overwhelming as a keeper"?

Overall, I think he maintained an exceptional standard of wicketkeeping throughout his career. At the very end he declined slightly.

I've gone into this debate too often, but for me his footwork was not good putting him out if place and leading to diving catches that looked great or else were dropped or not even reached.
I also thought his stumpings weren't with the speed of a Grout or the precision of a Tallon. So exceptional no, but better than most who have since tried to follow his batsman keeper ways, sure

 

[the big bambino]

Gilly was a magnificent keeper. The distinction with Tallon or Grout is just one for the purists. Its like preferring one batsmen over another bcos he plays the cover drive classically. Or a bowler bcos his action is more side on than others. It may appeal aesthetically but there isn't a practical benefit that should influence selection. What matters to a batsman is runs. Similarly it doesnt matter if a keeper dives for his catches as long as he holds them and that his stumpings are swift enough to find batsmen out of their crease. Gilly took his chances and then accelerates ahead of anyone thanks to his match winning batting.

 

[Red]

I've gone into this debate too often, but for me his footwork was not good putting him out if place and leading to diving catches that looked great or else were dropped or not even reached.
I also thought his stumpings weren't with the speed of a Grout or the precision of a Tallon. So exceptional no, but better than most who have since tried to follow his batsman keeper ways, sure

Just never got this. He was exceptional standing back and rarely missed stuff, and he had to keep to Warne and MacGill and was incredibly tidy at that as well.

Modern keepers don't get as much chance to show off their stumping skills because modern batsmen play back in their crease a lot more, and spinners are generally less utilised nowadays anyhow.

 

[watson]

The argument about the relative skills of keepers like Gilchrist, Kirmani, Knott, Evans, and Tallon can never be fully resolved because there are no satisfactory statistics like Average, Strike Rate, Economy Rate, etc etc to help settle the debate. I'm not saying that statistics are everything, but they are certainly a good guide.

We could look at things like the average number of byes conceded per Test, or dismissals per Test, but ultimately they depend too much on the quality of bowling, the type of bowling, and the pitch conditions. In other words, if **** bowlers consistently bowl the ball 2 metres wide of the stumps then there's not much even the classiest keeper can do to prevent byes, or complete a dismissal.

So all have to go by when assessing someones keeping skills is the personal testimonies of the batsman and bowlers they played with/against, as well as the opinions of expert commentators and writers.

That being said, I've heard few experts rave about the keeping skills of Gilchrist. You get a nod of approval to the question "was he very good", but generally nothing more than that. However, it is not difficult to find articles raving about the sheer brilliance of Kirmani, Knott, Evans, and Tallon. Whether you agree or disagree with all the raving is not the point. The fact that it has been written ad nauseum has to mean something significant.

 

[the big bambino]

Seen Kirmani. He aint all that. Difference btwn Gilly and Knott is about the same as that btwn Knott and Taylor which wasn't enough for Taylor to get him selected over Knott.

 

[Gowza]

Gilchrist falls behind in technique but not in performance, there's a reason why a lot of people place him in their all time XI and it can't simply be that his batting was so far ahead if he was only a very good keeper. they must consider him top tier or near to it to even consider him in their all time team otherwise it'd just he silly picking him.

Probably isn't raved about because he wasn't as technically correct, he also came just after Healy who was a tremendous keeper with top technique.

 

[Red]

Healy is one guy kind of in underrated/forgotten in my opinion. Used to love watching him keep. If you're talking Tallon/Evans purist glovework kinda stuff, Healy belongs in the conversation

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Yeah, good point about Healy.
Incidentally I wonder had WW2 not interfered whether Tallon's batting would have stayed at a higher level it was in the shield, and be able to bring that form to tests? It's difficult when amongst the Imvincibles his runs weren't often required