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***Official*** New Zealand in the West Indies 2014

Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
swap permaul for miller. iirc miller is just another darter and we have plenty of those.:(

and hurricane, without tearing into your philosophy yet again, i think saying this is as good as it gets for a side with so many young established players is too pessimistic even for you. if KW, Southee, Boult, Neesham and Latham are still at the level they're at now when they're 30 then that will be a bit disappointing because they're producing goods right now even though they're not in their primes - i hope they are even better than they are now down the road.

goes for both teams actually. jerome taylor, shiv, ramdin, gayle etc are about as good as they're ever going to get but brathwaite, bravo, roach etc should improve with age. just need someone like blackwood to be a good player and try to fill the hole shiv will leave shortly. well, you can't replace a hero like shiv who smokes it even when he's 40 but you get the idea.
 
Mike5181

Mike5181

International Captain
Re: Wagner and our third seamer spot. He's definitely earned himself a long run in this team, and due to the frailty of our next best - Henry, Wheeler, Small, Milne etc it'll probably be a little while before he has any serious competition. I think he's an underrated player anyway. He may never be world class, but he has been and will be a useful player at test level.

Athlai said:
Yeah I'd sell my left nut for any of those spinners you mentioned.
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Holding out hope for an Ajmal/Herath type player for that right nut then?
 
Mike5181

Mike5181

International Captain
Flem274* said:
swap permaul for miller. iirc miller is just another darter and we have plenty of those.:(

and hurricane, without tearing into your philosophy yet again, i think saying this is as good as it gets for a side with so many young established players is too pessimistic even for you. if KW, Southee, Boult, Neesham and Latham are still at the level they're at now when they're 30 then that will be a bit disappointing because they're producing goods right now even though they're not in their primes - i hope they are even better than they are now down the road.

goes for both teams actually. jerome taylor, shiv, ramdin, gayle etc are about as good as they're ever going to get but brathwaite, bravo, roach etc should improve with age. just need someone like blackwood to be a good player and try to fill the hole shiv will leave shortly. well, you can't replace a hero like shiv who smokes it even when he's 40 but you get the idea.
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Think I said it earlier in this thread but - Brathwaite, Bravo, Blackwood, Narine, Roach, and Holder is a pretty decent looking group of players to build a team around post-Chanderpaul.
 
Hurricane

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Flem274* said:
swap permaul for miller. iirc miller is just another darter and we have plenty of those.:(

and hurricane, without tearing into your philosophy yet again, i think saying this is as good as it gets for a side with so many young established players is too pessimistic even for you. if KW, Southee, Boult, Neesham and Latham are still at the level they're at now when they're 30 then that will be a bit disappointing because they're producing goods right now even though they're not in their primes - i hope they are even better than they are now down the road.

goes for both teams actually. jerome taylor, shiv, ramdin, gayle etc are about as good as they're ever going to get but brathwaite, bravo, roach etc should improve with age. just need someone like blackwood to be a good player and try to fill the hole shiv will leave shortly. well, you can't replace a hero like shiv who smokes it even when he's 40 but you get the idea.
Click to expand...
No.

Southee is averaging 22.6 in the last two years. If you think he is going to kick on to being better than that then we are talking hadlee type performances. He will never be that good because he can't seam it as much as Richard.
Kane is averaging 55 in the last 12 months. This is as good as he gets as well unless we are talking about putting him up there with Ponting type people and you are expecting him to average 70 for 3 or 4 seasons in a row.
Neesham must come back down to earth. He will approach his FC average in the end. Unless we can show that his FC average is weighted down by some youthful failures in his early years.
I will stay silent on Latham - I don't know what he is capable of anymore. I didn't think he would average 40 in test cricket. Logic would say he must improve this is only his first tour.
 
Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
Looking at the averages like that doesn't tell you the story though. You're being too simplistic. KW has a nice average but has a converting problem and doesn't score daddy hundreds, amongst other things.

It's a bit like Ross had a good average for yonks but last summer the West Indies couldn't get him out. It's also the way he's looked when batting at times - despite averaging probably similar-ish to what he has in past years you can see his batting has improved in how calm he seems to be and he's looked like an immovable object at times.

KW is a better batsman than Ross was at his age and has a better technique but with just as many brains. He can do a lot better than what he's doing now, and there is a big wide open field between what he's doing now and what the true greats did.
 
Hurricane

Hurricane

Hall of Fame Member
Flem274* said:
Looking at the averages like that doesn't tell you the story though. You're being too simplistic. KW has a nice average but has a converting problem and doesn't score daddy hundreds, amongst other things.

It's a bit like Ross had a good average for yonks but last summer the West Indies couldn't get him out. It's also the way he's looked when batting at times - despite averaging probably similar-ish to what he has in past years you can see his batting has improved in how calm he seems to be and he's looked like an immovable object at times.

KW is a better batsman than Ross was at his age and has a better technique but with just as many brains. He can do a lot better than what he's doing now, and there is a big wide open field between what he's doing now and what the true greats did.
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Fair doos.

I felt was being a bit south on Kane - yes he could do even better and I hope he does. But then we really are talking about some 70+ seasons and we talking about him surpassing Ross at a minimum in the NZ ATG rankings and challenging Crowe - that is a tall order. Where I think he can improve is outside his off stump against pacers to short deliveries. If he can take way that dismissal then he improves by 10% as a player over night.
 
Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
He'll have that issue for the rest of his career to an extent - even Punter had his issues, but like Punter KW has gotten much better at hiding that little flirt. If he can continue to improve on his weaknesses then yes, he will score plenty of runs.

I think he'll forge a better career than most we've had. He's got the same advantage as Alistair Cook in that he was selected at a very young age (he has over 30 tests at 23 years of age), he has a good technique, a good head on his shoulders and he's just good. He'll play well over 100 tests and even if he plays to about par for his ability (which is basically where he is now - averaging mid forties or so since his SL ton) he'll tick along and break most if not all NZ batting records through sheer weight of tests and runs. He's got what he needs to be better than Ross anyway like I said above, even though I like watching Ross bat more.

Barring underperformance you'll have no choice over the number three spot for the NZ all time side when he retires

3. Kane Williamson
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
Outside looking a tad clearer today. Still overcast but not as bad.
At least it's not raining presently.
 
Beamer

Beamer

International Vice-Captain
Hurricane said:
It was noted that Beamer did not mention Permaul. He would not get a game for us even.
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Yeah I really don't rate him. Probably about the same standard as Craig tbh. Flat trajectory, only spins it a bit. Whereas Miller does actually spin the ball in 4 day cricket and is relentlessly accurate, he gets many of our test batsmen out when they play the semi-finals onwards etc.

I think people think he's just a darter because they've seen his ODI performances.
 
Maximas

Maximas

Cricketer Of The Year
kyear2 said:
Outside looking a tad clearer today. Still overcast but not as bad.
At least it's not raining presently.
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Will the 9:30 start be a reality? Nothing from cricinfo yet

EDIT: as I say it... Looks like we will start on time according to them
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
Maximas said:
Will the 9:30 start be a reality? Nothing from cricinfo yet

EDIT: as I say it... Looks like we will start on time according to them
Click to expand...
Seeing specs of blue sky. Should start on time despite overnight rain as Kensington drains exceptionally well.
 
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