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***Official*** New Zealand in the West Indies 2014

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
The question for us is whether the two new batsmen come straight into the side or whether it will be one with Edwards being given another chance.

Also one wonder if the same attack will be retained or whether another pacer will be employed..Winwards beat trinidad at queens park with pace a few months ago so it just might be the way we go...with Holder or Gabriel joining Taylor and Roach.

Brathwaite
Gayle
Blackwood/Edwards
Darren Bravo
Chanderpaul
Johnson/Blackwood
Ramdin (wk) (c)
Taylor
Holder/Gabriel/Benn
Roach
Shillingford
I'd be very hesitant to bring in any more than one new batsman into the side. Going from Bangladesh A to Southee and Boult on a relatively seamer friendly surface is going to be an extremely difficult adjustment to make. I'd bring Blackwood in for Samuels and leave Edwards in the side. He was one of the few WI batsmen to acquit himself reasonably in NZ last year, so I'd say that he deserves another go.

On the bowlers, surely you'd have to go with Holder wouldn't you? Everytime I've seen Gabriel bowl he's looked well short of test standard, and I'd imagine he's very likely to undermine the pressure built up by WI's frontline seamers.
 

WindieWeathers

International Regular
You mean the test where New Zealand did everything they could to throw it away? Piss away a 300 run first innings lead then almost let India chase down 400 in the fourth innings? Yeah, India were always in the driving seat that test. New Zealand were lucky to win.

As I said before the series started it doesn't matter if New Zealand win 3-0, you will forever be making excuses. Narine aside who else is missing exactly?
Narine is a big enough excuse tbh..because we all know he's had that NZ top order in fits each and every time he's faced them. And if you actually read this thread back you'd see i suggested it could cost us the series...but i digress, tomorrow is a new day and we'll see what happens in trinidad.
 

WindieWeathers

International Regular
I'd be very hesitant to bring in any more than one new batsman into the side. Going from Bangladesh A to Southee and Boult on a relatively seamer friendly surface is going to be an extremely difficult adjustment to make. I'd bring Blackwood in for Samuels and leave Edwards in the side. He was one of the few WI batsmen to acquit himself reasonably in NZ last year, so I'd say that he deserves another go.

On the bowlers, surely you'd have to go with Holder wouldn't you? Everytime I've seen Gabriel bowl he's looked well short of test standard, and I'd imagine he's very likely to undermine the pressure built up by WI's frontline seamers.
The thing is Johnson is in good form while Blackwood has been incredible of late..yes the standard is vastly different but they are very confident right now..and that might be enough to allow them to make a decent impact on this test match.

And yes Holder would be the obvious choice but with it being in Trinidad (Gabriel's country) you just never know with these coaches...in truth though Gabbi has improved since that NZ tour so i don't think it would be that bad of a decision although clearly Holder would be the better pick...Holder certainly seemed to like facing Williamson in the ODI's so that would be an interesting battle should it happen.
 
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Flem274*

123/5
Lack of bounce in the home pitches will screw Holder over a bit through his career. He's going to have a better record in Australia, England, South Africa and New Zealand imo. Poor bloke should have been born in one of those countries - he'd be a bully at home if he achieved his potential.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Johnson's in for Powell and Blackwood is in for Samuels. Neither is replacing Edwards.
That's true as far as the squad goes; Brathwaite was already in the squad though and Johnson is not an opener. Braithwaite is pretty much guaranteed to play by virtue of actually being in the squad originally and being an opener.
 

WindieWeathers

International Regular
That's true as far as the squad goes; Brathwaite was already in the squad though and Johnson is not an opener. Braithwaite is pretty much guaranteed to play by virtue of actually being in the squad originally and being an opener.
Correct..Kraigg plays tomorrow and it would be fully deserved after the two years he's just had at both first class and A-team level..averaging around 55. It will be interesting to see how Southee and Boult adapt to having to change lines in their opening spells..having two lefties to bowl at allowed Tim to get comfortable imo...so making him having to change will hopefully slow him up a little bit.
 
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Howsie

Cricketer Of The Year
Lack of bounce in the home pitches will screw Holder over a bit through his career. He's going to have a better record in Australia, England, South Africa and New Zealand imo. Poor bloke should have been born in one of those countries - he'd be a bully at home if he achieved his potential.
Not necessarily IMO. I mean South Africa has some of the most juiced up pitches around and Morne Morkel's record their is only a run or two better than a lot of the other countries he's toured. A tall bowler like Holder can be just as deadly on a pitch that is starting to keep low as he would be on a bouncy one. Just depends on how well you bowl I guess, what lengths you hit etc.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
Correct..Kraigg plays tomorrow and it would be fully deserved after the two years he's just had at both first class and A-team level..averaging around 55. It will be interesting to see how Southee and Powell adapt to having to change lines in their opening spells..having two lefties to bowl at allowed Tim to get comfortable imo...so making him having to change will hopefully slow him up a little bit.
Southee is better to right-handers than he is to lefties. That said, you're right in that it does force him to change his lines around which makes it difficult as far as consistency goes.
 

WindieWeathers

International Regular
Holder for sure would present a totally different problem for the NZ batsmen..he's got decent yorkers, can swing the ball both ways and his height can of course be an asset.
 

Blocky

Banned
SMH honestly this is just crazy talk here. "Inconsistent"? :blink: the guy just came back from a SIX MONTH layoff and had not played a first class game before the first test..only a t20 game for his local side in barbados where he bowled four overs and then he played a two day game vs a young Barbados eleven..so the kid was totally cold in that first innings and it showed. Second innings he finally got his lines right and he alongside Taylor started to cause all sorts of problems...and the encouraging thing from our perspective is the last time Kemar played a test in trinidad he got a 10fer vs Australia..so write him off if you wish.
Six month layoff from a career that he's never been overly consistent in, he has some amazing performances scattered in between that - his average is inflated by performances against Bangladesh and the last time NZ toured here but I dare say he won't escape this series without some damage to his figures and reputation. He's not in the same league as Boult, let alone Southee. You say "He got better in the second innings" - I say the NZ'ers simply allowed him to bowl at them without putting pressure on him and hitting the bad balls away and made his bowling spell look much better than it was - as we saw with Latham handling him comfortably in both innings.

Even if Kemar takes a 10fer versus us in Trinidad, West Indies will not win. It makes me laugh though, in one sentence you're saying that Roach shouldn't be expected to perform during his first few tests from comeback, the next you're issuing a warning that he'll destroy our batting line up.

Course it's horses for courses. The thing is, Trent is guaranteed a new ball every Test and we don't know when one is going to go around corners. If it does, and Wagner takes it, we're at a disadvantage.

My opinion the whole way along was one spinner and Kane. So now it's Pidg and Kane + three seamers. Jimmy, as wonderful of a talent as he is, is (at this stage) fodder on flat decks at Test level. I truly believe he can become more than that, and he's one hell of an asset in helpful conditions with his batting talent added.
Agree with you on Neesham, height, good raw pace and the ability to hit the seam should give him some tools to work with down the line. Trent - agree to disagree. I think ultimately no one should be a safe selection if they're not likely to contribute in the environment they're playing in and at the moment, for all of his talent, he does struggle in these conditions.

I said Roach AND Taylor together are Boult and Southee's equal acually..and judging by the first test was i far off? Boult only got one wicket and once again hid behind Southee.

And like i said that was due to me being upset that our BEST spinner and NZ's boogy man has been left on the sidelines.

It was a team picked on reputation alone...not on current form...i wanted Brathwaite to start and i was bigging up Blackwood before the series started.

No-one is denying the improvement NZ have shown over the years...but don't get too carried away because there are still major weak points in that side that i believe the better teams will exploit.

Ok..i'll hold you to that.

The truth is NZ only have three proven batsmen at the top level i.e Williamson, Taylor and Mccullum. The rest are still a work in progress and haven't proven themselves against the very best attacks in the game yet...the good sign for us is after Kane got his ton we got him, Taylor and Mccullum fairly cheaply twice...the difference in the game really wasn't those three...it was Neesham's knock and Craig getting wickets.
If you're saying NZ only has three proven batsmen at the top level, then I'll counter and say in recent times, the Windies really only have two... Gayle not really contributing to his usual standard. The issue is also that when you make blanket statements like that, you don't think about match ups in the teams. If you're looking at these two teams side by side, the only two players who are absolutes from the Windies to make the combined side are Gayle and Chanderpaul if you match man for man.

Neesham is coming off back to back tonnes, Watling is setting records as a keeper batsman and if Latham starts to show the same consistency he just has in a season of first class, he'll be another causing pain for the Windies.

Then you have the issue of the bowlers. If you had Narine, maybe you've got room to feel that you've got a bowling attack that could compete with New Zealand. But you don't - comparing Taylor and Roach to Southee and Boult is a little funny, even though Boult is a fish out of water in these conditions, ultimately either Southee or Boult are much better than either Taylor or Roach as bowlers, recent form and entire history tells you that.

Like I say. West Indies won't beat New Zealand, unless something like a sticky wicket situation happens, NZ are sent in first and get rolled on a pitch as bad as they were in the warm up matches. Even then I'd give money on NZ being able to snick out the Windies under a low score.
 

Blocky

Banned
Wagner. Sounds like by day 3 or so, it'll start going underground/popping.

Sorry to interrupt whatever else is going but we'd do well to sit back and reflect on how what a gem our wicketkeeper is. 24 months ago, let's say, he wasn't even keeping for his domestic side - now his coach truly believes he's the best in the world. If anyone epitomizes hard work paying off it's him. Ultimate team man on top of it.
Watling was always a superb keeper in youth cricket though, the only reason he didn't keep domestically is that ND had two great (domestic) keepers at the same time in himself and McGlashan... realistically the moment he put the gloves on again, there was only going to be a short period of time before he started excelling. I remember debates with a tonne of people in that period that people still felt Kruger Van Wyk or Ronchi should have been selected ahead of him - since then, he's been performing brilliantly and in my view, he and Southee are our two stand out performers despite the golden summers of Kane, Taylor and McCullum.

I'm hoping they discard Sodhi for this test, I'd fully expect Wagner on a "patchy pitch" to be the second best seamer present in the match behind Southee.

As for Rutherford, has to be last chance saloon for him for a while, he's not going back to domestic and dominating, so realistically, little keeps him in there.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
I disagree with Blocky about Roach. I genuinely saw a couple of good spells from him. He was beating Williamson's outside edge quite consistently. Jerome Taylor was also very good. On a pitch with a bit more juice they could run through NZ.

However, as much as I don't rate Rutherford, I think two left handers at the top of the order will be good for NZ. As well as Taylor bowled, he struggled against the left handers. His stock ball (the out swinger) is similar to Southee's, which is an excellent delivery against right handers but he doesn't quite have the control that Southee showed to probe away on a line to left handers.

And frankly, anyone that's lasting longer than Fulton will make things a heck of a lot easier for NZ.
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
Six month layoff from a career that he's never been overly consistent in, he has some amazing performances scattered in between that - his average is inflated by performances against Bangladesh and the last time NZ toured here but I dare say he won't escape this series without some damage to his figures and reputation. He's not in the same league as Boult, let alone Southee. You say "He got better in the second innings" - I say the NZ'ers simply allowed him to bowl at them without putting pressure on him and hitting the bad balls away and made his bowling spell look much better than it was - as we saw with Latham handling him comfortably in both innings.

Even if Kemar takes a 10fer versus us in Trinidad, West Indies will not win. It makes me laugh though, in one sentence you're saying that Roach shouldn't be expected to perform during his first few tests from comeback, the next you're issuing a warning that he'll destroy our batting line up.
Disagree with a couple of things here:

1) Roach's record is inflated by performances against Bangladesh - not really. Cut out his efforts against Zimbang and his overall record still reads 70 wickets at 29, which is not much different at all to his overall career record.

2) Roach has been inconsistent - again not really. Apart from 2011, when he suffered on the sub-continent, Roach has been pretty consistent, averaging sub-30 every year. He's also got good test records against every country save Pakistan and India (and given that he's played only 2 matches v Pakistan and 1 v India, this discrepancy can easily be put down to small sample size).

3) He's not in the same league as Boult - disagree fairly firmly with this. A fully fit Kemar Roach can whip it through at 150kmh and generate skiddy swing and awkward bounce. I'd take that Kemar Roach over Boult in most conditions. We're pretty fortunate in this series that he's clearly not operating at 100%.
 

SteveNZ

International Coach
Agree with you on Neesham, height, good raw pace and the ability to hit the seam should give him some tools to work with down the line. Trent - agree to disagree. I think ultimately no one should be a safe selection if they're not likely to contribute in the environment they're playing in and at the moment, for all of his talent, he does struggle in these conditions.
I remember a pitch at Eden Park that people think was such a dead duck that even Fults could score twin tons on it...Trent took 6-for and bowled very well without luck in the second dig.

Look, if it goes around corners we've got two of the best equipped guys in the world to exploit it. You want an attack with one world-class bowler and a guy at the other end landing it on the quarter seam every 2-3 balls? No thanks. All 3 have defined roles, especially the ND pair. Trent will become a better older ball bowler over time and this debate won't be worth wasting breath on. And Wagner will continue to do his thing, and probably polarise all who choose to have an opinion on him. Me, I could care less how much steam comes out of his nose and how many wide long hops he bowls, as long as he is contributing - which he is.
 

hendrix

Hall of Fame Member
I remember a pitch at Eden Park that people think was such a dead duck that even Fults could score twin tons on it...Trent took 6-for and bowled very well without luck in the second dig.
He was getting miles of reverse swing in that test too, IIRC.
 

SteveNZ

International Coach
Roach isn't in the same league as Boult, simply because he hasn't stayed on the park long enough to prove so. Talent-wise, absolutely he's the equal of most great quicks in the world.

I'll never forget his nut first ball of an ODI to Shane Watson that basically bent in 45deg late and took his off peg. Being a fast-bowling aficionado and a noted disliker of Watto, it was glorious. So we know the bloke can bowl fast, and genuinely trouble people, like Tim has it's up to him to prepare well enough to exhibit that over a longer period of time.
 

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