*Official* English Football Season 2013-14

[sledger]

Player's of his ilk? He's exceptionally good...

 

[Cabinet96]

One more word I'd say on wages though. It's much more about relative terms than absolute terms. From my understanding, the main reason Kroos wants more money at Bayern is so that he's rewarded the same amount as the starts of the club. You set a dangerous precedent by giving players ridiculously high salaries. Most footballers don't start out thinking they want 6 figures a week, but when they realise their mate who's not much better than them is on triple the wages that's when they want more.

 

[Cabinet96]

Player's of his ilk? He's exceptionally good...

Good enough to be earning twice as much as players like Özil, Lahm and Schweignstiger?

 

[Tom Halsey]

What? Sounds like a total bargain to me.

Not sure about that. Probably on balance just about worth it, but not a bargain.

Thing with Kroos is I don't think he's been that brilliant in the more withdrawn role he has played this season, which no doubt is the role we would want him to play. He's been well above average but not a world beater, which is what you would expect someone on 260k a week to be.

I would still sign him for many of the same reasons I would have resigned Rooney but I reckon if we did (I still don't really think he will actually come to us) he would disappoint a few people.

The other thing is I hear that the transfer fee would be £40m? If that's true then I'm not sure at all.

 

[sledger]

Good enough to be earning twice as much as players like Özil, Lahm and Schweignstiger?

Dunno, I just thought it strange that you seemed to think it was odd that a top player like Kroos would be able to command a top salary, is all.

 

[Cabinet96]

Dunno, I just thought it strange that you seemed to think it was odd that a top player like Kroos would be able to command a top salary, is all.

I'm probably looking at it the wrong way, but I would expect that money to be on a top elite player like Messi, Ronaldo, Ibra, Suarez etc. Kroos is a high quality player, but I'd definitely have him slightly down on those guys. Also think there's a bit of potential for the Özil treatment with him if he goes a few games without really making much of an influence (which he will). I mean, even this season he hasn't exactly been very productive in terms of output; whether you think his two tackles a game and build up play make up for that and make him among the best players in Europe I don't know. One thing he's got in his favour is that he'll probably adjust physically to the Premier League better than most players with similar technical ability.

Edit: When I say I'm looking at it the wrong way, I mean it terms of what a top salary is. I'd consider it to be above 80/100k.

 

[sledger]

I'm probably looking at it the wrong way, but I would expect that money to be on a top elite player like Messi, Ronaldo, Ibra, Suarez etc. Kroos is a high quality player, but I'd definitely have him slightly down on those guys. Also think there's a bit of potential for the Özil treatment with him if he goes a few games without really making much of an influence (which he will). I mean, even this season he hasn't exactly been very productive in terms of output; whether you think his two tackles a game and build up play make up for that and make him among the best players in Europe I don't know. One thing he's got in his favour is that he'll probably adjust physically to the Premier League better than most players with similar technical ability.

Edit: When I say I'm looking at it the wrong way, I mean it terms of what a top salary is. I'd consider it to be above 80/100k.

Ah, I getcha.

To be honest I don't think any footballer is deserving of earning wages that high, but c'est la vie. I expect we are likely to see more and more salaries pushing the £200k boundary as time goes on.

 

[Ikki]

To paraphrase Clarkson, that's a bit like saying that syphilis is the best of the ***ually transmitted diseases.

Admittedly much of my dislike for Gerrard is that he plays for Liverpool, but tbh I don't think I'd like him much anyway, for reasons that are admittedly in part outside of his control. The way the English press write about him you would think he was the best midfielder of his generation, which frankly he just wasn't. Not his fault obviously, but it really is very tedious. It's also fair to say though that whilst his list of ****ish acts are far shorter and less serious than the lists of many footballers, it does exist.

He's definitely up there IMO and probably in the opinion of many others.

I also disagree with GIMH about how his transfer request fiasco doesn't impact on the question of his loyalty. I agree in so far as it's really a relatively minor issue but hypothetically if Wayne Rooney was to end up spending as long at Man Utd as Gerrard has done at Liverpool absolutely no-one sensible would consider him loyal for it. Loyalty is more than just staying at one club for a length of time and handing in a transfer request is disloyal, even if it's justified - I don't actually think 100% loyalty is a good thing anyway so I wouldn't use it as a stick to beat him with.

So, basically, because for a few months out of a 15 year career he entertained the idea of leaving, he is Wayne Rooney? Rooney's situation isn't really comparable. Rooney went to United for the trophies and the money - he was an Everton fan. Gerrard stayed despite being able to earn more and win more elsewhere. Really, his career is comic book stuff. He's been at the heart of every major honour Liverpool have won in his career and has basically carried the club on his back. Despite playing with guys who didn't deserve to tie his laces; he's won basically every honour you can win at club level bar the league and hopefully that'll be settled soon too. He's the only player in history to score in an FA cup, League cup, Champions League and UEFA cup final. He's put the club/team first, even in terms of playing every other position just so the team could succeed and he's done it with aplomb.

At 33, he's still killing it and he's still one of the best players in the world. I know we're talking about how neutrals look at him, but in terms of how Liverpool fans - or fans of him in general - look at him; he defines the word "legend". His ability and character have more than played their part in it. By the time he retires he'll probably go down as the greatest player to ever play for Liverpool. And yes, he has been more than loyal.

 

[Tom Halsey]

So, basically, because for a few months out of a 15 year career he entertained the idea of leaving, he is Wayne Rooney? Rooney's situation isn't really comparable. Rooney went to United for the trophies and the money - he was an Everton fan. Gerrard stayed despite being able to earn more and win more elsewhere. Really, his career is comic book stuff. He's been at the heart of every major honour Liverpool have won in his career and has basically carried the club on his back. Despite playing with guys who didn't deserve to tie his laces; he's won basically every honour you can win at club level bar the league and hopefully that'll be settled soon too. He's the only player in history to score in an FA cup, League cup, Champions League and UEFA cup final. He's put the club/team first, even in terms of playing every other position just so the team could succeed and he's done it with aplomb.

At 33, he's still killing it and he's still one of the best players in the world. I know we're talking about how neutrals look at him, but in terms of how Liverpool fans - or fans of him in general - look at him; he defines the word "legend". His ability and character have more than played their part in it. By the time he retires he'll probably go down as the greatest player to ever play for Liverpool.

This sort of stuff is so OTT that it's exactly what I meant when I said that much of why I dislike Gerrard isn't directly down to him.

Also you haven't read what I actually said, because I didn't compare Gerrard and Rooney, although actually in the sense that as I understand it both used their transfer requests to get more money out of the club there are comparable elements. I used Rooney to illustrate what loyalty (to me) is and isn't. I even specifically said I wouldn't use it as a stick to beat Gerrard with.

As for Gerrard being up there with the best midfielders of his generation, he was vaguely up there, but not the best. His career has overlapped with much of the careers of Xavi, Iniesta, Fabgregas, Schweinsteiger, Ballack, Scholes, Zidane, Essien, Vieira, Keane, Alonso, etc. It's not that he doesn't deserve to be mentioned with these sort of names because he does, but there are several of those that I would have clearly above him. In all honesty I think it's hard, looking at that list, to make a rational argument that Gerrard was the best.

 

[Uppercut]

Not sure about that. Probably on balance just about worth it, but not a bargain.

Thing with Kroos is I don't think he's been that brilliant in the more withdrawn role he has played this season, which no doubt is the role we would want him to play. He's been well above average but not a world beater, which is what you would expect someone on 260k a week to be.

I would still sign him for many of the same reasons I would have resigned Rooney but I reckon if we did (I still don't really think he will actually come to us) he would disappoint a few people.

The other thing is I hear that the transfer fee would be £40m? If that's true then I'm not sure at all.

I actually agree with pretty much all of this. I'm just considering United's circumstances. Getting Kroos on 260k a week is easily in the top 5% of transfer window possibilities.

 

[Ikki]

This sort of stuff is so OTT that it's exactly what I meant when I said that much of why I dislike Gerrard isn't directly down to him.

Also you haven't read what I actually said, because I didn't compare Gerrard and Rooney, although actually in the sense that as I understand it both used their transfer requests to get more money out of the club there are comparable elements. I used Rooney to illustrate what loyalty (to me) is and isn't. I even specifically said I wouldn't use it as a stick to beat Gerrard with.

I did read what you said and I said that none of what he did is comparable to Rooney's situation for your hypothetical to even make sense. Gerrard didn't stay at Liverpool because they offered him more than others; he said he just wanted to feel valued and felt at the time he was almost doing the club a favour by getting them the fee. In the grand scheme of things, to doubt his loyalty based on such a small period, in which ultimately he stayed, is a stretch and that's being kind. Rooney has been wanting to leave for several years now and we all know he only stayed for the money.

As for Gerrard being up there with the best midfielders of his generation, he was vaguely up there, but not the best. His career has overlapped with much of the careers of Xavi, Iniesta, Fabgregas, Schweinsteiger, Ballack, Scholes, Zidane, Essien, Vieira, Keane, Alonso, etc. It's not that he doesn't deserve to be mentioned with these sort of names because he does, but there are several of those that I would have clearly above him. In all honesty I think it's hard, looking at that list, to make a rational argument that Gerrard was the best.

TBH, apart from Zidane, Iniesta and Xavi I'd have him above the others without too much doubt. The aforementioned three provide a debate; but if you want a rational argument then it comes down to looking at their abilities as players and not their trophies won (which is heavily dependent on their teammates of which Gerrard wasn't particularly blessed for most of his career). It's a classic argument that occurs across most sports - how good an individual is with respect to their teammates. If you had to start a team and you could only pick one of the aforementioned players, and had no guarantee on the quality of teammates, then who better than Gerrard who can do everything to a POTY level?

I don't want to get into an argument about it (we've had it before) but I think you're just underselling Gerrard. If you follow the comments about him enough by his contemporaries then you'd understand why he gets lauded as he does. It's fair enough that you might disagree but I think it's going a bit far having that negatively effect your opinion of him. Especially because he's never been one to flaunt endorsements or desire media attention that those kinds of players tend to garner.

 

[Furball]

Good enough to be earning twice as much as players like Özil, Lahm and Schweignstiger?

Yes. He's one of the best players in the world.

 

[Furball]

And there's a prime example of why players dive. Jarvis clearly impeded there, stays on his feet and gets nothing for it.

 

[grecian]

What a poncey finish that was

 

[Cabinet96]

Typical Giroud that. Couldn't believe he made a good run that wasn't offside so he stopped, then couldn't shoot on his right foot so just stabbed at it with his left.

 

[grecian]

It's all classic Arsenal isn't it under pressure? just put your boot through it. They're playing better than Saturday though.

 

[Furball]

We remember them today, you should never go to a game of football and not come back.

Whites played Hartlepool away that day and a copper said to one of ours, "your mates from Liverpool have kicked off big time at Sheffield Wednesday"

Even then history was being rewritten. A national disgrace, for 23 years.

RIP.

25 years and counting.

It was a disgrace that it took 23 years for anyone to tell the families "yeah, your sons and daughters weren't actually responsible for their dying at a game of football." It's still a disgrace that nobody has admitted liability, from the FA to South Yorkshire Police, to the government.

It is to their eternal credit that Liverpool Football Club, and to a lesser extent the wider footballing community, has stood steadfastly by the families affected in their quest for justice. Nothing will ever reverse what happened on that day, nor erase the pain that the families have gone through for the last 25 years. But the least they deserve is for the organisations responsible to apologise and for those involved in criminal wrongdoing to be punished.

Justice For The 96.

 

[Cabinet96]

Podolski's one lucky ****. I was going to go full blown mental on him tonight if he didn't do anything.

 

[Eds]

Thought Arsenal were the much better side that half. You're always likely to be shaky defensively if Kallstrom, Arteta and Cazorla are your central midfield trio but offensively I thought they were pretty decent. Could see them scoring two or three more.

 

[Cabinet96]

They were shaky to begin with, but after about 20 minutes they were fine. The West Ham goal was a bit out of the blue.