Greatest opener of the last 20 years?

[Jono]

Imagine how much Tendulkar could have averaged if he'd faced India's "bowlers" over the course of his career.

No wonder people think he was better than Bradman, he'd surely have averaged about 150.

Haha.

I sometimes do wonder if Tendulkar and Lara sat in the slips and saw the crud bowling for their team and thought "fmd i wish I was facing this ****"

I mean surely seeing Nehra bowl in tests and knowing you can never cash in must just be rough.

 

[Prince EWS]

Haha.

I sometimes do wonder if Tendulkar and Lara sat in the slips and saw the crud bowling for their team and thought "fmd i wish I was facing this ****"

I mean surely seeing Nehra bowl in tests and knowing you can never cash in must just be rough.

Tendulkar probably would've thought the same if he saw Hanse Cronje and Dilhara Fernando taking the new ball for India though, and how wrong he would have been!

 

[Hooksey]

Imagine how much Tendulkar could have averaged if he'd faced India's "bowlers" over the course of his career.

No wonder people think he was better than Bradman, he'd surely have averaged about 150.

The mind boggles at how many runs Bradman would have made in the current era with covered wickets, shortened boundaries and some of the crap bowling on offer.

 

[Jono]

Tendulkar probably would've thought the same if he saw Hanse Cronje and Dilhara Fernando taking the new ball for India though, and how wrong he would have been!

 

[Muloghonto]

Look, I'm a big fan of Tendulkar, but to suggest that Ponting had more opportunities than him to play against the weaker nations is just straight up wrong.

Tendulkar had to face Mcwarne, Ponting had to face India. Even if he had batted through all of the 90s ( far tougher decade for batsmen), that count alone would make it so that Tendulkar has faced greater quaity attacks than Ponting.
This is notwithstanding the fact that Tendulkar had to face Hadlee, Imran, Waqar at his full pomp ( Waqar was not the force he was after his back injuries in mid 90s), etc. Except for Lara, no-one in the last 20 years has faced a greater quality of bowlers and attacks as often as Tendulkar has.

 

[Muloghonto]

The mind boggles at how many runs Bradman would have made in the current era with covered wickets, shortened boundaries and some of the crap bowling on offer.

Steyn, Morkel, etc. would've most likely cut his numbers down significantly. Bradman batted one series where they aimed for his head and ended up averaging 55-ish. Against better fast bowlers doing it all the time, his numbers couldn't have been much better IMO. He'd probably be the best of the lot if he played in the post 70s era, but i cannot see him ending up with more than a high 50s/low 60s average.

 

[Hooksey]

Steyn, Morkel, etc. would've most likely cut his numbers down significantly. Bradman batted one series where they aimed for his head and ended up averaging 55-ish. Against better fast bowlers doing it all the time, his numbers couldn't have been much better IMO. He'd probably be the best of the lot if he played in the post 70s era, but i cannot see him ending up with more than a high 50s/low 60s average.

They didn't have helmets, covered wickets or shortened boundaries in Bradman's day. There was also no rule to control the number of short pitched balls bowled per over in Bradman's day.

Tendulkar, a man of similar stature and technique to Bradman, can hande Morkel, and you don't think Bradman could?

 

[Dan]

This whole "I'd rather Sehwag on a green seamer than Ponting on a turner" strikes me as reading way too much into statistics rather than using your eyes.

 

[Prince EWS]

Greatest opener of the last 20 years
Still manages to end up about whether or not pre-WWII players could hack it.

I thought the discussion about Dravid, Tendulkar and Ponting was fine because it was somewhat relevant to the debate for context, but come on guys, it's not like we don't have enough threads for the other debate already.

 

[Red]

Tendulkar had to face Mcwarne, Ponting had to face India. Even if he had batted through all of the 90s ( far tougher decade for batsmen), that count alone would make it so that Tendulkar has faced greater quaity attacks than Ponting.
This is notwithstanding the fact that Tendulkar had to face Hadlee, Imran, Waqar at his full pomp ( Waqar was not the force he was after his back injuries in mid 90s), etc. Except for Lara, no-one in the last 20 years has faced a greater quality of bowlers and attacks as often as Tendulkar has.

How many tests did Tendulkar get to play vs Bangladesh, Zimbabwe & SL, compared to Ponting?

I'm not invested heavily in this argument. I think Tendulkar is great (see my sig). But this running down of Ponting ****s me. Ponting was a clutch performer, in the clutch position, in one of the greatest teams of all time. At his peak (which he sustained for a long enough time), he was as good as anyone over the last 30 years.

 

[ohnoitsyou]

Ponting is about the 7th best Australian middle order bat ever.


Says more about how good Australia is at producing cricketing greatness that Pontings ability

 

[Spark]

How many tests did Tendulkar get to play vs Bangladesh, Zimbabwe & SL, compared to Ponting?

I'm not invested heavily in this argument. I think Tendulkar is great (see my sig). But this running down of Ponting ****s me. Ponting was a clutch performer, in the clutch position, in one of the greatest teams of all time. At his peak (which he sustained for a long enough time), he was as good as anyone over the last 30 years.

Quite. People forget so quickly just how ****ing ridiculously good he was at his best.

This whole "I'd rather Sehwag on a green seamer than Ponting on a turner" strikes me as reading way too much into statistics rather than using your eyes.

Haha, yeah. Definitely know which one I'd back to make a score there.

 

[The Sean]

Ha ha, I love how Punter averaging 84, 33 and 31 in three series in Sri Lanka is considered only a 33% success rate, but Sehwag averaging 39 and 10 in two series in England is a 50% pass. No agenda at all there, then.

As for the question at hand, it’s Hayden or Sehwag for me. Both men are quite underrated in these parts IMO – their flaws and struggles tend to be magnified and heavily focused upon, while the ludicrous levels of runscoring success each of them achieved for large parts of their career are largely handwaved.

 

[fredfertang]

Quite. People forget so quickly just how ****ing ridiculously good he was at his best.

I wish I could

 

[TNT]

It seems vitaly important to some people that they strongly protest the assumption that Ponting is as good as Lara or Tendulkar, I wonder if in the years ahead it will be diagnosed as a condition. Maybe even used as a defence in court "your honor my client acted in self defence when he shot the victim because the victim claimed that Ponting was as good as Tendulkar".

 

[ImpatientLime]

What about Trescothick? When you consider the problems the fella had, its remarkable he ended with the career and batting record he has. A very brave man.

Dunno about tests, but I always thought he was criminally underrated in ODIs. England's best ever there (I know that doesn't say much) for my money. The only Englishman to score more than ten centuries.

I'm going to email James and demand the immediate dismissal of whichever mod is deleting all references to Mike Atherton in this thread - it is childish and trolling and won't alter the fact that everyone knows he's the best opener of the last 20 years - just live with it

Probably played the best innings by any opener in the past 20 years tbf.

 

[GuyFromLancs]

This is just nonsense. Ponting visited India six times. his average during those series are: 13.50, 21.50, 3.40, 11.50, 38.00 and 56.00
Ponting played vs SL in SL in three tours. His average during that was 84.33, 33.00 and 31.00

His abysmal record in India stretches back from 96, when harbhajan was not even in the team and his abysmal record in SL coincides with Murali's prime.
IMO, Ponting has a far stronger case for being a fail at playing spin in spinning conditions because he has failed so many times in India. Whereas Sehwag has had far less experience in any single overseas country.

It's difficult to defend Ponting's overall record in India. 26.48 against good spinners in good spinning conditions is about the same Sehwag manages against England and the mighty New Zealand combined when outside of India. But, I digress. No-one seriously thought Sehwag was Ponting's equal as a batsman, all things considered.

FYI, his record in England is 39.50 and 10.25 for just two series, his record in Australia is 58.00, 41.50,71.50 and 24.75,
his record in RSA is 49.66, 14.83 and 24.00, his record in NZ is 10.00 and 28.00, his record in West Indies is 51.00

I know, I have access to the Internet. Thanks.

Ponting on the other hand, has a 33% success rate in Sri Lanka and 16.66% success rate in India.

Ignoring your hilarious use of stats, Ponting averages a shade over 44 in Sri Lanka. Hardly a disgrace.

I'd definitely trust Sehwag's opening skills against seam far more than Ponting's skills against spin on spin-friendly surfaces.

Ok

Oh and neither Ponting, nor Kallis are good enough to be compared to Lara or Sachin. I rate Dravid higher than both of them, for the simple fact that both Ponting and Kallis made their debuts in 96.

I'm citing popular opinion within cricket at the time. it was often said (and is often said) that Ponting existed in that Lara and Tendulkar class of batsman. You may well disagree and you may well be right to. But you can't rewrite history.

Till 2001, Ponting's record was 3182 runs @ 44.19 from 72 dismissals, amassing 36.82 average against England, 34.93 against India, 63.20 vs Pakistan, 43.62 vs South Africa and 40.00 vs West Indies.

Which ain't bad. The first few years of his career, in an era of good bowlers, and he averaged 44.19. I'm impressed.

After 2001, when the likes of Donald, Ambrose, Walsh, Gough, Caddick, Fraser were all either sidelined or retired, we see Ponting's record mushroom. In the period when there were excellent bowling lineups going around, Ponting only had real success against Pakistan, while being barely competent against South Africa and West Indies.
This was a period when only 5 players averaged 50+: Tendulkar, Lara, Steve Waugh, Andy Flower and Rahul Dravid.

You won't get anywhere talking about favourable batting conditions when defending Sehwag. I'm gonna put my neck out and suggest in his whole career, Sehwag averaged less than 40 outside the sub-continent. A career that began as pitches were getting more and more batsman friendly.

I wonder what the Indian policy on Sehwag was away from home. Was he sometimes rested for 'tactical reasons'? Genuine question.

Once we see a significantly weaker English, Saffie and West Indian attack, do we see Ponting dominate pace attacks. Same is the case with Jaques Kallis, where he too went into 'overdrive' once the bowling attacks fell away significantly after 2001/2002.

This is statistically supported as well, since after 2001/2002, we have Hayden,Langer, Tendulkar, Ponting, Clarke, Hussey, Amla, ABDV, Kallis, Sangakkara, Jayawardene, Yousuf, Younis Khan, Lara, Chanderpaul and probably a few others who averaged 50+.

So no, neither Ponting, nor Kallis are actually comparable to Lara or Tendulkar. They did not shine, despite numerous opportunities, in an era where bowling quality was high. They shone excellently when the bowling quality worldwide was rubbish and yes, they did bash more runs against mediocre attacks than the likes of Lara or Tendulkar did.
But the entire point of ATG comparisons and merit for being in an ATG lineup, is performance against ATG sides/attacks. Bashing minnows or average attacks to bits is kind of irrelevant to facing up to 4 ATG bowlers. On that accord, Ponting and Kallis are far, far behind Lara or Tendulkar.

I agree it became easier for batsmen. I remember Ponting dragging his overall test average to 60 at one point. Incredible.

 

[Jassy]

To be fair to Sehwag, the NZ series in 2009 had pretty flat pitches. Anyway, Sehwag is not really on Ponting's level as a batsman. He's comparable to a bloke like Sangakkara, not Ponting.

 

[paulted]

and Dravid didn't?? He played some of his finest innings on ropey wickets when the rest of the Indian team had surrendered.

 

[Jono]

Going to steer this convo back to openers.


Re: Hayden, I reckon I underrated him somewhat for a few years since he's generally hated on CW (bullying nature of batting etc.) and then the 2005 Ashes was just such a burning memory of him. It definitely influenced my opinion for a few years. Also the fact he's a dickhead.

But the more I think about it the more I may have him in my "all-time players I've watched XI" as opener. He's not a lock, don't get me wrong. But FMD the **** was good.